Motor stall detection as Z probe

dragonn

Does stall detection works when using two motors connected to one driver? Z probing with stall detection is just a brilliant idea!

dc42

It probably won't work as well that way because the drop in back emf of the motor that stalls will be attenuated by the other one. But worth trying. If your E1 driver is free then you can connect the second motor to that instead. Stall detection monitors all drivers for an axis.

Phaedrux

This is interesting. I have very high steps on my Z axis. 3200, giving 0.005mm for a single step. That's better than the repeatability I'm getting from the BLTouch.

@Shen Would you mind sharing how you have it configured?

Shen

[[language]]
M913  Z30:30 ; Reduce current
M201 Z100; Reduce acceleration
M915 P1:2 S1 F0; Set stall detection threshold (you don't need this if you have it in config.g file)

G91
G1 S1 Z-210 F600 ; probe
G90

M201 Z1250 ; Restore acceleration
M913 Z50:50; Restore current

G92 Z0
G1 Z0.4 F3600; Stall triggers at -0.4mm, raise nozzle by 0,4mm.
G92 Z0

```Here is my code for z probe. The exact configuration would probably be different between each setup. You'll need to look for a setup that trigger the stall detection with the lowest impact force between the bed and the nozzle. Here is how I figured out mine:
First you need to lower your Z acceleration so stall detection won't trigger due to the force of z acceleration.
Then you need to figure out the lowest current that stall detection works reliably(M913). I found my motor moves reliably at 20% current, but stall detection works reliably at 30% current.
Then find the lowest stall detection thresh hold(M915). Mine is 1\. To avoid damage your printer always start with low values that would trigger the stall detection immediately, and increase the value until you can move the z axis.
You might also want to find the lowest speed as well to further reduce the impact force, but I just used F600.
Change any of the current, stall detection thresh hold and speed will probably effect the other 2\. You need to find a combination that works reliably and has the lowest impact force. To determine the impact force, I put a piece of print between the nozzle and the bed, and check the mark left by the nozzle after impact.
I don't have a spring under my bed, this might now work for you if you have a soft sprint under the bed.

DjDemonD

@phaedrux said in Motor stall detection as Z probe:

This is interesting. I have very high steps on my Z axis. 3200, giving 0.005mm for a single step. That's better than the repeatability I'm getting from the BLTouch.

@Shen Would you mind sharing how you have it configured?

This is what I wondered about. It's not, according to what I read about it here when the stall detect and sensorless homing was first included microsteps, it's full motor steps.

This is why I am wondering how this can work well. My delta (0.9deg steppers and 16t pulleys) is 200 (micro)steps/mm, but this is at 1/16th so its 12.5 full steps/mm which is 80 microns per step! That's quite a big chunk given we are getting (upto) 5 micron accuracy using the Orion Z-probe.

However I might try it.

Mysta

I'm going to try on my 1.5m delta as well, I will probably probe each print since so far most of my prints take forever anyway so why not.

dc42

I have implemented this as Z probe type 10 in the latest build of firmware 2.0alpha. I've a few more things to test and at least one thing to fix before I do another 2.0alpha release.

Shen

This would probably not work very well on deltas. If you use 5mm pitch screw with 0.9 degree stepper on Z axis, each full step is only 0.0125mm.

dc42

@shen said in Motor stall detection as Z probe:

This would probably not work very well on deltas. If you use 5mm pitch screw with 0.9 degree stepper on Z axis, each full step is only 0.0125mm.

That's right, it will only work when the Z steps/mm is high enough so that one full step provides sufficient resolution, but low enough that the motor stall can be detected before too much force is applied between the nozzle and the bed.

Mysta

Oops must have followed a link and forgot, was referring to endstop not probe. Have smart Effector for probing.

DjDemonD

It works fine for endstops, but because it is not very accurate, and I can confirm this having an endstop-less delta running, you need to auto-calibrate after each homing or you will not have an accurate enough calibration to print. Not a particularly big problem, but it highlights that it won't work for most deltas as a z-probe. My cylinder delta is 400steps/mm as it is leadscrew driven on XYZ but this is still only a 40-microns-accuracy z probe which is a good factor of 4-8 out on a smart effector or piezo probe.

Mysta

@djdemond said in Motor stall detection as Z probe:

It works fine for endstops, but because it is not very accurate, and I can confirm this having an endstop-less delta running, you need to auto-calibrate after each homing or you will not have an accurate enough calibration to print. Not a particularly big problem, but it highlights that it won't work for most deltas as a z-probe. My cylinder delta is 400steps/mm as it is leadscrew driven on XYZ but this is still only a 40-microns-accuracy z probe which is a good factor of 4-8 out on a smart effector or piezo probe.

Yeah I'm excited to try out the smart effector, my arms finally arriving today. 500mm from Haydn. Do you have your calibrate script for endstop less? I definitely don't mind probing each print.

dc42

@mysta said in Motor stall detection as Z probe:

Yeah I'm excited to try out the smart effector, my arms finally arriving today. 500mm from Haydn. Do you have your calibrate script for endstop less? I definitely don't mind probing each print.

For a script to home a delta without endstops, see the example macro file towards the end of https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Stall_detection_and_sensorless_homing#Section_Configuring_sensorless_homing. This file is for testing homing without endstops. For actual use as a homing file you could simplify it. For example, you don't need the M574 commands to change the endstop type because you can just set stall detect endstops in config.g if that's the only type of endstop you ever use.

Mysta

Thanks, I'll start from there. I left the endstops on my frame just in case but I'm really interested in using some of the new functionality of the 2660

dc42

In firmware 2.0beta 1 you can now set Z probe type 10 in the M558 command, which selects a Z motor stall-detect probe. As I explained previously, this will only work if your Z steps/mm is high enough for 1 motor full step to provide sufficient resolution, and if you can find a combination of M915 stall detect settings and motor current that you can detect the stall before the Z motor drives the nozzle too hard into the bed.

DjDemonD

M80 ;PSU ON
; Homing file for RepRapFirmware on Large Kossel
; Sensorless Homing test file for RepRapFirmware on Kossel
M915 X Y Z S2 F1 R0 ;set stall detect drives, S-threshold (-64 to 63), F1 filtered, R-log only
M400 ; make sure everything has stopped before we make changes
M574 X2 Y2 Z2 S3 ; set endstops to use motor stall
M913 X30 Y30 Z30 ; reduce motor current to 50% to prevent belts slipping
G91 ; use relative positioning
G1 S1 X700 Y700 Z700 F2000 ; move all carriages up 700mm, stopping at the endstops
G1 Z-5 F2000 ; down a few mm so that we can centre the head
G90 ; back to absolute positioning
M400 ; make sure everything has stopped before we reset the motor currents
M913 X100 Y100 Z100 ; motor currents back to normal
G1 X0 Y0 F2000 ; centre the head and set a reasonable feed rate
M574 X2 Y2 Z2 S1 ; set endstops back to normal so that homedelta.g works

You just need to experiment with M915 R to get the threshold right.

bartolomeus

I like experimenting and would like to give this a go. I am building a corexy, with 3200steps/mm on Z with1/16th microstepping. I could also go for a 0.9 stepper motor and get 6400 steps/mm at 1/16th or 3200 at 1/8th, or 1600 at 1/4 and so on.

With a 1.8 stepper, accuracy would be 0.005
With a 0.9 stepper, accuracy would be 0.0025

What would be the best choice?

DjDemonD

Well for Z positional accuracy at 10 microns would be fairly good, 5 microns even better, 2.5 microns is probably excessive, but then I cannot see a reason to choose 1.8 deg motor for Z, it never has to move fast.

bartolomeus

How about steps/mm with a 0.9degree. Is 6400 doable for the duet or should I then use 1/8th microstepping, or does this have no effect at all? And then, are there any downsides to 1/8th microstepping?

DjDemonD

6400 steps/mm is doable and given the very small amount of movement required in z it won't overly tax the processor. However in terms of stall detect only full steps count so 0.9 degree is preferable.

1/8th is noisier. But try it, its very interesting to see the differences in noise, speed and (if you look really hard) print quality between different microstepping modes.