Easier to use Software

fcwilt

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

I'll shut up now and go away......

Don't do that - I just made a big batch of popcorn!

I just haven't wanted to deal with the problems of beta firmware.

I won't try a release candidate.

I even wait for the released version to generate some feedback before I install it.

I'm just too old.

Frederick

deckingman

@zapta said in Easier to use Software:

@dc42 said in Easier to use Software:

They already exist:
https://e3d-online.com/blogs/news/asmbl
https://www.diabasemachines.com/hseries

This reminds me the long promised flying cars.

What is interesting in that link is this - quote .......

" All parts are easily available and can be controlled directly by the Duet2."

Thank goodness they didn't mention controlling it with Duet 3

dc42

@deckingman, I'm having a hard time working out what you are complaining about regarding the current capabilities of Duet 3. Your machine has been working using Duet 3 right from the time that you first joined us on the Duet3D stand at TCT with your machine. There were some teething troubles, but far from being an embarrassment as you claim, it produced several good prints (as well as a few failed ones). The second year that you joined us, it produced lots of good prints.

I remember seeing you complain about the following items relating to firmware on Duet 3:

Endstops connected to the main board cannot yet control motors attached to expansion boards. Way back I think we asked you to connect your Z endstop switch to the expansion board instead of to the main board because of this. So your machine is working within this limitation. Are you really desperate to rewire the endstops?
Unable to run heater tuning on your hot end because its heater/thermistor are driven from an expansion board. In fact this facility has been implemented and is available in 3.3beta1 firmware.
Insufficient step rate on expansion boards to use high microstepping (although this did not stop you from doing good prints at TCT). This was fixed early in the RRF 3.2 development cycle. You chose not to install any beta or RC versions, so you had to wait until the 3.2 stable release to get the benefit.
Your homing script did not execute correctly when you installed RRF 3.2 stable. This turned out to be caused by the combination of using a M109 command in your homing file (which is highly unusual) and then calling another macro in your homing file (which is also on common, except for homeall.g calling other homing files). This is not a combination that I or any of our beta users tested with. Had you installed a 3.2beta or 3.2RC firmware version on your machine, it would have been found in time to fix it for the 3.2stable release. As it is, I spend half a day debugging this so that I could fix it in the 3.2.2 release.

I guess I must have missed something, because from your posts it appears that you still think that something is stopping you from using your machine as you want, and you wish that you were using Duet 2 to control it. What have I missed?

deckingman

@dc42 There is something seriously wrong with your memory. I'm starting to get really worried about you.

The first time we did the TCT show was 2017 - I did a blog post about it at that time https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2017/09/06/my-printer-and-i-will-be-at-the-tct-show/. This was with a Diamond 5 colour using Duet 2 (Ethernet plus Duex 5) and for sure, I produced some quite reasonable prints.

In 2018, my machine was not on your stand. Duet 3 was just announced and you had a display board driving various motors (you also had an M3D crane quad with a Maestro which was almost, but not quite producing some prints).

Then I converted my machine to gen 3 from June 2019 onwards when the first pre-production boards became available. I did a series of blog posts documenting that conversion. The first was this one

https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2019/07/15/wiring-upgrade-duet-generation-3-and-tct-show-2019/

The second was this one https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2019/08/28/duet-generation-3-upgrade-and-tct-show-part-2/. Note that it opens with these sentences

"Progress has been slow up until now because it have been waiting for the hardware to arrive. The expansion boards which are prototype boards, arrived on Monday 19th so I have now been able to fit them and wire them up. As I write this (Wednesday 28th August) I am awaiting the main board which should arrive in the post today. "

The third post was this one https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2019/09/03/duet-generation-3-upgrade-and-tct-show-2019-part3/

It starts wit this with this

Captains log, StarDate 3rd September 2019. Things are hotting up and getting quite frantic so this will have to be very quick post.

and it ends with this

As I write this, there are various people throughout the UK and also in Germany who are working long days to get the firmware ready for the show. Many of us worked from 7.00 a.m. to past 10:00 pm on both Saturday and Sunday.

As of this moment, all 7 axes now move as they should, as do all 6 extruders and the bed heats but not the hot end. Homing switches on expansion boards do not yet currently work but these things should be resolved in the next couple of days or so.

So far, the only wiring issue was that I had stupidly connected the bed SSR the wrong way round, which was easily fixed and caused no damage. So I’m quite pleased about that.

Unfortunately, I will be going on holiday between 10th September and 19th so that leaves very few testing days between now and the TCT show.

I’ll have to finish this blog post now and it is unlikely that I’ll be able t find time to post any more updates before the show starts.

After the TCT show, I did a follow up blog post https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2019/10/21/duet-generation-3-upgrade-part-4-and-post-tct-show/

That one starts with this

Despite all our best efforts, the Duet guys didn’t quite get all of the outstanding issues resolved with the prototype expansion board firmware in time for the TCT show. So we had to run with what we had. I wasn’t able to successfully complete a full demonstration print, but I did manage some partial prints. Fortunately, when I explained that the expansion boards were prototypes and so was the firmware, most people were quite understanding.

Maybe you weren't embarrassed by the lack of any functional printers on you stand. IIRC, Tony's delta didn't work either. But I was certainly embarrassed on you behalf with constantly making excuses for the non-functional firmware.

But how can you say quote "The second year that you joined us, it produced lots of good prints."? The reality is that it never produced a single decent print - just a few partial failures due to all sorts of issues. I couldn't even home the bloody thing, other than inching the bed up and using the "paper under the nozzle, G92 Z0" thing.

Sure the machine is now just about functional because I've managed to come up with numerous work-a rounds. But there are still these limitations
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Duet_3_firmware_configuration_limitations

Oh and I can sort of produce some sort of parts providing I don't want to use pressure advance - as I stated here on 22nd Feb https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/21562/firmware-bundle-3-2-2-released/24?_=1614610750592

That last one has been met with the normal deathly silence that I've come to expect............

But what's the point? You don't read posts and seemingly moderators don't flag them for your attention as I suggested might be a good idea. That's bad enough but what's really worrying is that your recollection of events and flagged problems seems to be divorced from reality.

dc42

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I had forgotten that you were using Duet 2 at the first TCT show.

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

Sure the machine is now just about functional because I've managed to come up with numerous work-a rounds. But there are still these limitations
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Duet_3_firmware_configuration_limitations

Which of those limitations actually affects your use of your machine, other than the ability to auto tune your hot end, which is implemented in 3.3beta1?

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

Oh and I can sort of produce some sort of parts providing I don't want to use pressure advance - as I stated here on 22nd Feb https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/21562/firmware-bundle-3-2-2-released/24?_=1614610750592

I'm sorry, that one seems to have slipped through the cracks. It's always better to start a new thread to describe a new issue, rather than mention it in a thread that has posts from different users about different things. I invite you to start a new thread describing that issue, which should include a photo of the faulty infill, the config.g file you were using at that time, and the pressure advance setting if it isn't in the config.g.

DanS79

@dc42 I don't know how you keep your cool, You must have the patients of a saint.

As a developer, I'd most likely end up in a physical altercation, if I had to deal with some of the garbage people regularly throw your way.

deckingman

@dc42 said in Easier to use Software:

Which of those limitations actually affects your use of your machine, other than the ability to auto tune your hot end, which is implemented in 3.3beta1?

TBH, it's more a complete lack of confidence in the firmware. I just don't trust it any more. When faults are obvious like homing failed messages, or extruders running backwards as per the 3.2 release, that's one thing. But when it's something like low step pulse frequency with no ability to look at hiccups (as was the case with expansion boards until recently) one has no way of knowing that the firmware is misbehaving.

Here are some of pics of a little case I just printed using a simple single input hot end and with pressure advance disabled. It's bloody awful - like the first print ever produced on a crap machine by a rank amateur.

Look how the corner bulges out at the top.

Look at this mess on the corners

Look at this stringing on the inside as if retraction has stopped working

As I said, it's like the first print ever turned out by someone new to the hobby using a machine that cost less than two of my 6 extruders.

There is so much wrong with that print that I hardly know where to start and I'm struggling to believe that it''s all caused by my disabling pressure advance.

The last 18 months have destroyed any confidence I had in the firmware. I just can't trust it any more............

DanS79

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

The last 18 months have destroyed any confidence I had in the firmware. I just can't trust it any more............

They why are you still using it?

DaBit

@deckingman: Lack of thrust is for a large part gut-feeling-territory, there is little to nothing Duet3D can do about that. Sometimes it happens that products go in a direction which does not suit you. Vehicle manufacturers do that, coffee machine manufacturers do that, and so on.

If I were in your situation I threw out the Duet3 and went back to Duet2+DueX5 with RRF2.05 or investigate other controllers. Takes a lot less energy in the end.

zapta

I believe that one good strategy is to separate between a stable version, even if it's a year old, and a bleeding edge one that covers the big leap from a stable 2.x to a stable 3.x.

It will provide latest and greatest to users that want and can take risks, a pool of testers for the developers, and stability for the users that need it. It will also reduces the pressure on the developers to get it right and fast, and will bring peace and harmony to the Duet community.

My 2c.

DanS79

@zapta said in Easier to use Software:

I believe that one good strategy is to separate between a stable version, even if it's a year old, and a bleeding edge one that covers the big leap from a stable 2.x to a stable 3.x.

It will provide latest and greatest to users that want and can take risks, a pool of testers for the developers, and stability for the users that need it. It will also reduces the pressure on the developers to get it right and fast, and will bring peace and harmony to the Duet community.

My 2c.

This will work for some people, but as a developer I can tell you it almost never works with those that complain the loudest. The ones that complain the loudest are usually the ones that want to be on the bleeding edge.

deckingman

@DanS79 said in Easier to use Software:

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

The last 18 months have destroyed any confidence I had in the firmware. I just can't trust it any more............

They why are you still using it?

I'm not - other than the pile of crap I just produced because I needed a container in a hurry, my printer sits idle - as it has done for many weeks.

Longer term, I'm still weighing up my options and looking at alternatives.

zapta

@DanS79 said in Easier to use Software:

The ones that complain the loudest are usually the ones that want to be on the bleeding edge.

It's hard to complain about a version that is called 'nightly build'.

deckingman

@DanS79 said in Easier to use Software:

............. The ones that complain the loudest are usually the ones that want to be on the bleeding edge.

Yes this accusation keeps getting levelled at me - basically it's all my fault for having a complex machine.

But let's explore that a little more (though I understand that you'd prefer a physical altercation - usually a sign that the arguiment has been lost IMO).

Firstly the machine is fundamentally the same as it was 3 years ago. I haven't been asking for anything new or special - simply the functionality that it had when I used gen 2. It's almost there now, but arguably that's because I have "screamed and shouted" as @dc42 put it. I suspect that had I kept quiet, it would have taken much longer than the 19 months it has taken so far.

Secondly, the complexity is mostly mechanical. Sure it's CoreXYUV with a mixing hot end but that's not desperately complex or wildly exotic. We can forget about the load balancing gantry - the only reason it's still on the machine is that I can't be bothered to remove it.

The Z axis is a simple as it gets - just a single motor driving 3 screws via a continuous belt. The complexity is making it such that it is mechanically flat, level and stays that way. It doesn't need, nor do I use any firmware levelling. Nor do I use and firmware flatness compensation. Nor does it need multiple motors.

The Z "probe" is the nozzle itself on a kinematic mount. Again, the complexity is making that mechanical mount such that the hot end is constrained from any XY movement but allowed to move in Z. The physical stop is also the switch - two metal parts that come together and make a circuit. It doesn't get any more basic than that. The firmware just has to react to an IO pin being pulled high or low. No probe to deploy, no IR or inductive sensor - nothing more than the simplest of switches.

All other end stops are simple micro switches.

The hot end is heavy and rigid. As such it has low resonant frequency so ringing just doesn't happen. So the machine does not need DAA.

The extruders are dual drive BMGs which do not slip. So the machine does not need non-linear extrusion.

All temperature sensors are simple NTC thermistors . So no need for thermocouples or PT100s.

I don't use any filament monitors.

Which brings me to the other accusation, that it's all my fault for not now testing beta firmwares. But as illustrated above, I don't use half the things that other users do, so their input is likely to be more relevant than mine.

DanS79

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

@DanS79 said in Easier to use Software:

............. The ones that complain the loudest are usually the ones that want to be on the bleeding edge.

Yes this accusation keeps getting levelled at me - basically it's all my fault for having a complex machine.

If I was referencing to you specifically, I would just call you out by name.

fcwilt

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

The last 18 months have destroyed any confidence I had in the firmware. I just can't trust it any more............

I have three printers of different designs. Two are using Duet 2 WiFi/Duex5 combos, one is using a Duet 3 Mini 5 WiFi.

I have a Duet 3 MB6HC/3HC combo on the bench for testing but it's going to be a long while before I will be able to try them in an actual printer.

I'm using firmware 3.2.2 on all of the boards.

All three of my machines turn out good prints.

You are using the MB6HC correct? So does that suggest your problems are related to that family of boards?

Thanks.

Frederick

JayJay

@fcwilt said in Easier to use Software:

@deckingman said in Easier to use Software:

The last 18 months have destroyed any confidence I had in the firmware. I just can't trust it any more............

I have three printers of different designs. Two are using Duet 2 WiFi/Duex5 combos, one is using a Duet 3 Mini 5 WiFi.

I have a Duet 3 MB6HC/3HC combo on the bench for testing but it's going to be a long while before I will be able to try them in an actual printer.

I'm using firmware 3.2.2 on all of the boards.

All three of my machines turn out good prints.

You are using the MB6HC correct? So does that suggest your problems are related to that family of boards?

Thanks.

Frederick

Since the advent of RRF3 and the Duet-3 ecosystem things have IMHOP gone so far south they are being asked for ID McMurdo Station.

Whereas a Duet-2 on RRF2 "just works"

fcwilt

@JayJay said in Easier to use Software:

Since the advent of RRF3 and the Duet-3 ecosystem things have IMHOP gone so far south they are being asked for ID McMurdo Station.

I was thinking that since 3.2.2 works fine on the Duet 2 family and the Mini 5 - none of which are using the CAN bus could the problems be related to things unique to the MB6HC/3HC family which rely on the CAN bus or the parts of the firmware the handle the CAN bus.

Frederick

deckingman

@fcwilt said in Easier to use Software:

...................You are using the MB6HC correct? So does that suggest your problems are related to that family of boards?

Thanks.

Frederick

Let's just say that in 2017 using Duet 2, at the TCT show, I was producing multi-colour vases (different colour on every layer). Two of those vases were requested by, and given to, employees of E3D on an adjacent stand. (E3D did not have the abilty to reproduce them). A third vase was requested by, and given to, a guy who owned museum of printing somewhere in Switzerland. As far as I know, it's still there on display.

In 2019, I converted to Duet3 hardware (MB6HC plus three MB3HC expansion boards) and I've had nothing but problems since. I've never been able to get replicate those vases. I once came close but the quality was far below show stand or museum display status.

My gut feel is that it's all related to the way expansion boards communicate with the main board. But that's just a gut feel.

I've made a conscious decision to ditch gen 3 hardware. I'm just considering whether to resort back to the Ethernet plus Duex5, or ditch all Duet products completely. Or maybe even ditch everything and settle for a cheap desktop all in one.

Anyone fancy making an offer on a part working CoreXYUVAB with 6 extruders?

On the other hand, there is enough extrusion, motors, belts etc to build a farm of small, single input machines - I might just do that..........

JayJay

@fcwilt said in Easier to use Software:

@JayJay said in Easier to use Software:

Since the advent of RRF3 and the Duet-3 ecosystem things have IMHOP gone so far south they are being asked for ID McMurdo Station.

I was thinking that since 3.2.2 works fine on the Duet 2 family and the Mini 5 - none of which are using the CAN bus could the problems be related to things unique to the MB6HC/3HC family which rely on the CAN bus or the parts of the firmware the handle the CAN bus.

Frederick

I have (and continue to have) issues if I install RRF3 on my Duet-2 board (but not with RRF2) and have niggly issues on my Duet-3 mini 5+ with RRF3, there is no point in opening new threads on those issues because the fan boys will roll out the stock "post your config.g" etc when its not a config issue. and i just stopped using my 6HC board as its a complete waste of time.