Why am I having to run with an extrusion multiplier of 60%?
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Looking at my S3D Install it appears that it CAN support upto 6 Tools (Don't ask how you configure it) but you can select from tool 0 to tool 5.
Doug
I don't know how to do mixing, but setting up several tools is fairly straightforward. For example, each color of feature you are printing is assigned its own process, each process specifies tools and other parameters specific to this tool. S3D website has a relatively large how-to section for more details.
I have been watching the thread as some of the most interesting information is included here, and also because I had similar problems with overextrusion and E3D Titan/V6/S3D on my ever-changing RM2 setup. As Ian, I had reduced extrusion parameters until it was printing with acceptable quality. However, I did not have time to investigate due completely rebuilding my printer and getting busy with school. Looking at this thread, I have a feeling that extruders other than Titan are not affected, thus I would suggest take another look at what's inside it.
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@GeckoBox3D. All valid points and while I'm not discounting the fact that there could be one or more faults with my machine, most of the things you mention would lead to under extrusion rather than over extrusion. For info, I'm using a PT100 instead of a thermistor and have found, through lots of testing that 195 deg C is best for my particular machine/setup. This is at the low end of what most people use for PLA but if anything should lead to less ooze and at high speeds might lead to partial blocking of the nozzle which would manifest itself as under extrusion. The other thing is that the Diamond hot end is a 3 in 1 out mixing hot end, so the differences you mention don't apply. That is to say, there is only one heater and one nozzle. I get the same results with all 3 Titan extruders incidentally.
@ terabyte. That's interesting what you say about the use of tools with S3D - thanks for that. That's effectively how it is done with slic3r. For info mixing is done via the tool definition so if in config.g I have say tool4 defined to use 33% of all three filaments, then I just uses that tool for that part of the print. One thing I do a fair bit is have colours transitioning from one to another over the height of the print. This is done by using a single tool but then post processing the gcode to change the mixing ration on say every 2nd layer change. I have a little python script that I run on the gcode file to do this but it looks like I might be able to use S3D's native post processing feature to do that which might be a better way of doing it.
@All. It seems there are quite a few people having similar issues, many when they have switched to using Titan extruders. I have to say that I never had any of these issues with my old RRP Mendel to which I had also fitted a Diamond hot end. However, it wouldn't be fair to say that the issue is with the Titan extruders as there are too many other differences between the two machines.
I've been observing how the machine behaves during printing. From these observations it seems that the apparent over extrusion happens during infill more than perimeters or possibly that it only happens during infill. This is definitely noticeable on objects which have a thinnish wall and need a thin infill.
Yesterday I was printing an object which is effectively a box, about 300mm long with walls 2mm thick. In slic3r I set perimeters to 2 and am using a 0,5mm nozzle and I set all the speeds to the same 45mm/sec. So in theory, the walls shouldn't need any infill as 4 perimeters (2 on the inside and 2 on the outside) at 0.5mm is 2mm and the extruder should run at more or less the same speed during all print moves.
Watching this print, I only get 1 perimeter with infill in between. What's more to the point is that the extruder runs noticeably faster when doing this infill. Not just a little bit - at at guess, I'd say it's at least 50% faster. I've double checked, and triple checked the slic3r settings and the speeds are definitely set to be the same for both infill and perimeters. So, slic3r is definitely doing something flaky with the infill.
Just thinking out loud, maybe slic3r generates rapid but small extruder moves, especially during infill, and maybe a lot of extruders cant's keep up with these moves but the Titan can? It's pure conjecture on my part but it would explain why a lot of people seem to have similar issues when changing to Titan extruders.
I need to go and do something else for a while as I can feel my sanity slipping away again…........
EDIT. Thinking about, of course the extruder will need to run faster if the carriage is moving in both X and Y when it does these silly small infills.
SECOND EDIT - No it won't - the movement speed should be the same, so the extruder speed should be the same.
THIRD EDIT. Looking at the gcode file, as near as I can make out, this thin infill is achieved not by zig zag moves but by simply upping the extruder speed by 50%. Maybe this is the problem? Maybe a lot of extruders will skip steps so the print will look fine but the Titans don't? So maybe it only affect those with the slic3r/Titan combination?
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@deckingman Have you seen there is a new version of S3D:
"Updated Dual Extrusion Wizard to support printers with 3 or more extruders"
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@deckingman Have you seen there is a new version of S3D:
"Updated Dual Extrusion Wizard to support printers with 3 or more extruders"
Thanks,
I haven't actually seen that quote but it still bothers me. It kind of reads like you can have any 2 colours (extruders) our of 3 or more and not necessarily be able to do tri-colour printing. However, it seems there is probably a way to do it using multi part printing and assigning different processes to each part. Each process could then use a different tool.
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…THIRD EDIT. Looking at the gcode file, as near as I can make out, this thin infill is achieved not by zig zag moves but by simply upping the extruder speed by 50%. Maybe this is the problem? Maybe a lot of extruders will skip steps so the print will look fine but the Titans don't? So maybe it only affect those with the slic3r/Titan combination?
This is an interesting observation; however, there is a couple of possible explanations for this. The most likely one is that the infill is printed 50% wider for strength by default, and therefore more filament is needed per length. On the other hand my Titan skips less than the old extruder, but that would not be noticeable at slower speed
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Ian
If you are worried about your extruder skipping steps then drop your max speed to see if that makes a difference.
My original point that you are suffering from overextrusion not underextrusion, therefore skipped steps are not causing your original issue.
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Hi Tony,
No skipped steps with the Titans - the point was that maybe lesser extruders might skip steps and so "mask" the problem.
No skipped steps that is until I get to the point where the Diamond hot end can't melt the filament fast enough. In other tests, I've determined this to be around 120mm/sec for PLA at 195 degC - much faster than I would normally print. Still no skipped steps but it does chew the filament.
If I print at what I consider to be fast (around 60mm/sec) then that problem infill situation will be printed running the extruder as if the print speed was 90. The Diamond/Titan combination can handle that without skipping steps or stripping filament but could lesser extruders? Probably yes but maybe not always?
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THIRD EDIT. Looking at the gcode file, as near as I can make out, this thin infill is achieved not by zig zag moves but by simply upping the extruder speed by 50%. Maybe this is the problem? Maybe a lot of extruders will skip steps so the print will look fine but the Titans don't? So maybe it only affect those with the slic3r/Titan combination?
As I understand it, this is precisely the "gap fill" situation in which slic3r 1.2.9 has a bug. Is it possible for you to test these same parts with a different version of slic3r? I have not had any success compiling the development version of slic3r, but you might be able to find the previous version pre-compiled somewhere.
Also as I understand it, slic3r is trying to fill the gap exactly by extruding extra to make a really wide line of plastic, and the bug is a miscalculation of how much extra it needs to extrude.
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I've been using the latest development versions of Slic3r with great success both on a Windows and Linux. Their build environment instructions are pretty spot on, what issues have you had?
I believe this is the guide I followed: https://github.com/alexrj/Slic3r/wiki/Running-Slic3r-from-git-on-Windows
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I'm trying to compile and run it on Linux. I followed these instructions: https://github.com/alexrj/Slic3r/wiki/Running-Slic3r-from-git-on-GNU-Linux and wound up with something that just segfaulted. It's out of master, so it's possible I just picked a broken version.
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As I understand it, this is precisely the "gap fill" situation in which slic3r 1.2.9 has a bug. Is it possible for you to test these same parts with a different version of slic3r? I have not had any success compiling the development version of slic3r, but you might be able to find the previous version pre-compiled somewhere.
Also as I understand it, slic3r is trying to fill the gap exactly by extruding extra to make a really wide line of plastic, and the bug is a miscalculation of how much extra it needs to extrude.
It is possible that gap fill is not properly calculated. However, this should not affect the whole layer, unless the layer entirely consists of walls with odd thickness.
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Latest update. I'm getting very similar results using S3D. That is to say, I get all the issues that suggest over extrusion using an "Extrusion Multiplier" of 1.00 but almost perfect results when I set it down to 0.80. So it has to be my machine but at this moment in time, I'm still stumped.
As an aside it's taken me 2 full days of jumping through hoops to get S3D to do what I ask and even so, 3 colour prints are just about impossible. What's the point of having a priming tower that gets printed after the object rather than before? S3D has some nice features but it is the biggest PITA to use (in my humble opinion). Now to see if they'll honour their refund within 2 weeks policy. (Rant over).
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I haven't yet found a way to switch S3D quickly and easily between generating gcode for my Cartesian and Delta printers. With slic3r it was really easy.
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I just keep multiple profiles, a set for my Delta, and a set for my Cartesian.
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Be sure to set the machine parameters in the individual profiles, and check the box to enable them upon use.
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Latest update. I'm getting very similar results using S3D. That is to say, I get all the issues that suggest over extrusion using an "Extrusion Multiplier" of 1.00 but almost perfect results when I set it down to 0.80. So it has to be my machine but at this moment in time, I'm still stumped.
As an aside it's taken me 2 full days of jumping through hoops to get S3D to do what I ask and even so, 3 colour prints are just about impossible. What's the point of having a priming tower that gets printed after the object rather than before? S3D has some nice features but it is the biggest PITA to use (in my humble opinion). Now to see if they'll honour their refund within 2 weeks policy. (Rant over).
Thanks for reporting back Ian.
Unfortunately S3D does not solve the problem, and for the cost, I would expect more cutting edge features, and more attention to people's needs, so far slic3r wins, but least you are making progress going from 60% to 80%
Since we are back to considering the hardware as the culprit, I would tear down the extruder and check the measurements, perhaps even count. I might do it tonight. -
But what I can't get my head around is that the extruders deliver exactly what is being asked of them - all 3 of them. i.e. I ask for 100mm to be extruded that's exactly what I get (well with a percent or so). That's by doing the "normal" 100mm test both with the hot end disconnected and with the hot end connected but heated. Also, if I mark the filament at 500mm, then print an object which should use 417mm of filament, then measure the filament again, it's within a percent or so of 417mm (but the finish is god awful - covered in blobs, lumps and stringy as hell with the nozzle dragging over the previous layers). Drop the extrusion down to 80% or so and all is sweetness and light.
Just doesn't make any sense…........
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Are you 100% sure the nozzle diameter in your slicer is correct? I have a J-head that I thought was .5mm but it turns out it was much smaller than that and the first couple layers of the print I did with .5mm settings came out funny (the increased pressure caused the material to wiggle out like a snake causing some funky waviness)
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@Nyl0cke:
Are you 100% sure the nozzle diameter in your slicer is correct? I have a J-head that I thought was .5mm but it turns out it was much smaller than that and the first couple layers of the print I did with .5mm settings came out funny (the increased pressure caused the material to wiggle out like a snake causing some funky waviness)
Measured with drill bits (measured the drill bits with calipers). A 0.5mm drill goes in, a 0.6mm doesn't. I guess it could be 0.55 or thereabouts. Tried setting the nozzle diameter to 0.6mm in Slic3R - result just the same. (Thanks for the thought though).
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But what I can't get my head around is that the extruders deliver exactly what is being asked of them - all 3 of them. i.e. I ask for 100mm to be extruded that's exactly what I get (well with a percent or so). That's by doing the "normal" 100mm test both with the hot end disconnected and with the hot end connected but heated. Also, if I mark the filament at 500mm, then print an object which should use 417mm of filament, then measure the filament again, it's within a percent or so of 417mm (but the finish is god awful - covered in blobs, lumps and stringy as hell with the nozzle dragging over the previous layers). Drop the extrusion down to 80% or so and all is sweetness and light.
Just doesn't make any sense…........
Its a slicer setting somewhere
