BMG vs clone test

jens55

I built a Nema14 based custom extruder using BMG clone gears, and I didn't notice any filament grinding, nor black dust... I printed several kg of filament (especially during french lockdown), and a few long run prints, without any issue.

As I tried to express, there are very few circumstances where he clone fails (or grinds). The black dust could be an issue with just that one clone for all I know.
I had another look at things this morning and I still haven't figured out where the black dust is coming from. Other than gear to gear, there are no parts touching each other. If the dust is generated as gears are wearing in, you would only notice that if there was a substantial load on the gears (from let's say a long Bowden tube or the tension spring being real tight).
All-in-all, I stand by my assessment that a clone extruder is a far better value for your money.

deckingman

@DocTrucker In the OPs part of the world, the clone manufacturers also enjoy the benefits low or zero import tariffs compared to EU based manufactures because the EU trade agreement is yet to be ratified whereas the agreement with the CCP has been in place since 2014. EU member states tend to pay their workers a decent minimum wage too, rather than using modern day slave labour such as the Uighurs. Also, part of the OEM profit goes towards developing future products, whereas all the cloners have to do is sit back and wait, then steal that intellectual property. Then of course, the cloners are all part of the state so they don't need to make a profit. Or rather, any profit they make goes to the state to help fund their inexorable military build up and the next war.

jens55

@DocTrucker said in BMG vs clone test:

Finally of course if the current cost model is brining in what they need for the business why drop further?

I think that this is exactly what is going on. They probably did a study of overall profit vs price and found the sweet spot. Unfortunately their profit sweet spot does not match the value sweet spot the consumer gets to experience. Note that there is nothing wrong with making a profit. I just feel I get far better value for my money with a clone.

@deckingman said in BMG vs clone test:

lso enjoy the benefits low or zero import tariffs compared to EU based manufactures

eu will drop those rules next year, making all imports subject to VAT at least to even the playing field (we already have similar rules and i must say i don't think it'll have the intended effect, but the government get their slice so theyre happy)

jens55

@deckingman said in BMG vs clone test:

@DocTrucker In the OPs part of the world, the clone manufacturers also enjoy the benefits low or zero import tariffs compared to EU based manufactures because the EU trade agreement is yet to be ratified whereas the agreement with the CCP has been in place since 2014. EU member states tend to pay their workers a decent minimum wage too, rather than using modern day slave labour such as the Uighurs. Also, part of the OEM profit goes towards developing future products, whereas all the cloners have to do is sit back and wait, then steal that intellectual property. Then of course, the cloners are all part of the state so they don't need to make a profit. Or rather, any profit they make goes to the state to help fund their inexorable military build up and the next war.

While I agree with this sentiment in some respects, it fails to see the total picture. Like it or not, a very large percentage of products or part of products are manufactured in China (or other low cost manufacturing countries). You can't simply pretend that China is not part of the global manufacturing system.
It would be nice if you could but you'd see every product go up in price by a factor of ten or more and nobody could afford to buy anything. If we would simply say "let's not buy anything from China" then our way of life would pretty much grind to a halt .... and that's assuming we had the manufacturing capacity which we don't have.

jens55

While I dn't really want to stirr the pot, it would be really interesting to look at Bondtech overall and see what would happen if all of a sudden it became illegal to source anything out of China.
Where does the raw material for their SLS printed cases come from?
Where do the SLS printers themselves come from? What about the components of the printers? Where did that ballpoint pen come from that the shipper is using or the printer that prints the shipping labels etc etc etc.
I think we would quickly find out that there is no way we could produce anything and it would take centuries to bring up the manufacturing machine to be able to produce our own bits (at a much much higher price)

fma

And without China, where would we find all these beautiful viruses?

@fma said in BMG vs clone test:

And without China, where would we find all these beautiful viruses?

I'm sure africa has more than ebola to offer, as will any place where humans can contact new species of small and large living things.

DocTrucker

Taken to extremes the majority of components on Duet boards are likely sourced from east asia. Likewise I think many of our favoured companies sub contract manufacturing or source sub components from similar locations. Large 'capitalist' companies have basically built the 'communist' east asian manufacturing power house.

deckingman

@jens55 said in BMG vs clone test:

While I agree with this sentiment in some respects, it fails to see the total picture. Like it or not, a very large percentage of products or part of products are manufactured in China (or other low cost manufacturing countries). You can't simply pretend that China is not part of the global manufacturing system.
It would be nice if you could but you'd see every product go up in price by a factor of ten or more and nobody could afford to buy anything. If we would simply say "let's not buy anything from China" then our way of life would pretty much grind to a halt .... and that's assuming we had the manufacturing capacity which we don't have.

You do have the manufacturing capability - you could have bought a locally made Dyze extruder.

This is probably not the time or place for this discussion but I think the way of life as we know it may now be relatively short lived. For sure, 30% of everything worldwide is manufactured in China (including Duet boards unless I am mistaken). China also owns the majority of the of the worlds shipping and much of the worlds infra structure which moves those goods around the planet. Then if you look at what China is doing to it's own people, the recent events in Hong Kong, their activities in the South China Sea, the territorial disputes they current have with Russia, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Laos, Philippines, Malaysia Indonesia, South Korea, North Korea etc, something has to give. Then there are the swingeing economic sanctions that they have imposed on Australia for daring to ask for an independent enquiry into the origins of Covid. The western world is starting to wake up and smell the coffee but it may already be too late. After Hong Kong, Taiwan will be next on their list. Will the rest of the world stand by and let that happen? If so then what? The entire South China Sea area? The Philippines? Malaysia? Sooner or later, something will give and then we really are stuffed.

deckingman

@DocTrucker said in BMG vs clone test:

Taken to extremes the majority of components on Duet boards are likely sourced from east asia. Likewise I think many of our favoured companies sub contract manufacturing or source sub components from similar locations. Large 'capitalist' companies have basically built the 'communist' east asian manufacturing power house.

East Asia is fine. Nothing wrong with South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia etc....

DocTrucker

I'm sticking with my east asian comment as although the whole area isn't the problem, it is also not only China that's the issue that leads to UK/US/European manufacturing appearing extortionate. It's a problem borne from race to the bottom economics and requires governance that isn't afraid to do things that shareholder led businesses won't do by their own accord. Use money from import tarrifs to help comparative internal industries compete at near the same point.

zapta

Like most markets, the extruder market also has room for a spectrum of quality and price points.

For example, one of the most popular printers in the market, the Ender 3, costs about the same as a Duet 3 board, and still makes many makers happy,

DocTrucker

@zapta spot on. Measured on does it get me to work, and over to my friends house in the evening a Bentley looks fairly crap compared to a Skoda.

Clones and copies are always going to be a contentious issue, but without the threat of clones and with no one copying each other to the slightest degree there would be far greater likelihood of profiteering which would make aspects of this pursuit/hobby/technology impractical.

Yes the BMG clones appear a direct copy of the bondtech units but in reality they are not. Different manufacturing methods and materials have been chosen that have allowed a significant per-unit cost saving in both production time, and improved production rate at the cost of flexibility. Along with reductions in quality control and customer support. Pay your money, take your choice. The fundamental innovation in the Bondtech BMG may have been new to 3D printing, but it was already in use for welding. So should they really be granted immunity from being copied just on the basis they borrowed a MIG wire feed mechanism and applied it to FFF machines?

If the real grumble here is the fact that some of the east asian countries can make things far cheaper than UK/US/EU countries or there is a particular grievance with a specific country then that is either the commentator having an issue with their governments import tarrifs/regulations, or indeed a political opinion on the country of source. While I may have strong feelings on both aspects I don't think this forum is the place to discuss these issues.

@DocTrucker said in BMG vs clone test:

So should they really be granted immunity from being copied just on the basis they borrowed a MIG wire feed mechanism and applied it to FFF machines?

sadly some patents are approved for using a non-novel concept in a pseudo-novel context, however not all hold up if challenged after the fact (admittedly i don't know, or care, if Bondtech has a patent)

DocTrucker

@bearer yes some patents that I have seen granted are laughable. Traxas for example have been very actively patent hungry in the area of radio control model cars patenting things like using two servos instead of one for steering. Necessary evil but also not really fit for purpose.

zapta

Does Bondtech AB have patents related to their extruders? I couldn't find any, not in search nor on their web site.

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP3659783A1/en?assignee="Bondtech+AB"

Edit: another thing I noticed is that they partner with Slice to compete with E3D which provides integral extruder + hotend sub systems.

DocTrucker

@zapta not sure. Wasn't personally referring directly to them having patents, merely the idea that we should be brand loyal to a specific party because they were there first with and idea.

Looking forward to what comes out of the Bondtech/slice partnership. I've been watching that for a while.

droftarts

@zapta I believe Bondtech has no patent for using two hobbed inserts because it’s widely used in extruding MIG welding filament. Or at least, that’s what I heard. I also think other people did it before them, just didn’t commercialise it.

Ian

Kolbi

@zapta Seems GPL-3.0 License - or at least partially.
https://github.com/BondtechAB/Bondtech_Prusa_i3