Hotend pid makes motors pulsate
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@johnjohn1990 Flickering lights indicates that the power supply voltage is dropping when the heater kicks on. That implies that the power supplies are underrated (which doesn't seem likely, based on what you've said), or there's excessive resistance in the cables between the controller boards and the power supplies (check the connections), the power supplies are not working the way they are supposed to, or maybe you're daisy-chaining the ground connection on the power supply with something else you haven't mentioned.
How long is "just long enough and not 1 cm more" 5m? 5 cm? What gauge are the cables?
Can you post a wiring diagram of the printers?
Were both of these working and then suddenly started having problems, or has this been a problem from day one? What changed?
Are there any line powered bed heaters? Is the flickering corresponding to the hot-end heater cycling or the bed heater cycling?
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@mrehorstdmd said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
@johnjohn1990 Flickering lights indicates that the power supply voltage is dropping when the heater kicks on. That implies that the power supplies are underrated (which doesn't seem likely, based on what you've said), or there's excessive resistance in the cables between the controller boards and the power supplies (check the connections), the power supplies are not working the way they are supposed to, or maybe you're daisy-chaining the ground connection on the power supply with something else you haven't mentioned.
How long is "just long enough and not 1 cm more" 5m? 5 cm? What gauge are the cables?
Can you post a wiring diagram of the printers?
Were both of these working and then suddenly started having problems, or has this been a problem from day one? What changed?
It started in the middle of a print......
Wire from psu to board is around 70cm or so.. the height of the printer, plus two small bends to enter the connector...
I cant, dont have drawing skills in this.. it is a strqight line from bottom to the top of the printer where the board is.. seperated as much as possible from other wires..
No idea about gauge.. but it has worked fine for anything... other printers, this printer, before issue happend, my laser, lamps, vacums, extenders, anything... its regular 220v power cable u can buy in any hardware store...Are there any way to test if the psu is misbehaving ?
M122 shows no fluctuation that would affect this.. i forgot to save the screenshot from yesterday... but it had no drops etc..I have not daisied anything..
Maybe i should try ground it seperately to a radistor pipe...? I do not have ground in my mains wires -
@johnjohn1990 It started in the middle of a print on both machines? The same print? The same slicer? Does it happen on other prints?
Sketch the diagram and take a picture of it with your phone...
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@mrehorstdmd said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
@johnjohn1990 It started in the middle of a print on both machines? The same print? The same slicer? Does it happen on other prints?
It happend on my ultimaker 2 clone some time ago, when i switched to a zesty nimble and had printed about 4 prints that was perfect... ever since, i have not been able to make it print as good as before.. it has this same wavy pattern, but not as much as this.. it is using a 24v original meanwell 360watt psu..
Then the other day i mounted the board and the psu in its PLA cases, printed the red lady on the picture, and then it started doing the wavy pattern u see on the picture when it reached to that point...
Happens on all existing slicers, also the one we use at work, all files and prints, even the ones that was perfect before.. -
I switched the nimble back to my old extruder, but that didnt fix the issue..
The delta is using a bondtech.. but ive tried 4 extruders i know worked before they were put away...
Im just using these square blocks because i can easily see the waves, and it takes 2 minutes to test..
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@dc42 can you shed some light on this??
I have changed EVERYTHING including psu, all i have not changed is the duet boards themself....
The 2 duets suffer same issue.. but one is a bit more prominent in the wavyness and flicker/fluctuation...
Maximum voltage drop is 0.6volts i have seen via m122... i tried all powersupplies i have available to me....
Nothing seems off...Is it possible for me that i have 2 duets suffering some.kind of internal issue that throws the hotend current into the motors etc???
Hotend voltage is around 2.8-3.8v when it is pidding, and is getting full power from psu, measured by multimeter, when it is heating from cold..(even at undervolt)...
Also restance in heater is 3.8-4ohm... impossible to get a steady result with my cheap multimeter... but it is not off..I can give you the board identification, if you want to look it up..
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@johnjohn1990 said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
@dc42 can you shed some light on this??
I have changed EVERYTHING including psu, all i have not changed is the duet boards themself....
The 2 duets suffer same issue.. but one is a bit more prominent in the wavyness and flicker/fluctuation...
Maximum voltage drop is 0.6volts i have seen via m122... i tried all powersupplies i have available to me....
Nothing seems off...Is it possible for me that i have 2 duets suffering some.kind of internal issue that throws the hotend current into the motors etc???
Hotend voltage is around 2.8-3.8v when it is pidding, and is getting full power from psu, measured by multimeter, when it is heating from cold..(even at undervolt)...
Also restance in heater is 3.8-4ohm... impossible to get a steady result with my cheap multimeter... but it is not off..I can give you the board identification, if you want to look it up..
@dc42 hello again.... i hope you see this....
I have just borrowed a brand new board from a buddy, and it doest not have these issues.. also, the MCU temp on this ned board never gets above 29c..... but both of my boards have a working temp of around 44-49c.....
so something is definately up!If it is an issue that is possible to fix, i am up for the task, just need to know, what i should be doing...
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@johnjohn1990 said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
I have just borrowed a brand new board from a buddy, and it doest not have these issues.. also, the MCU temp on this ned board never gets above 29c..... but both of my boards have a working temp of around 44-49c.....
that is within the range of the deviation.
see
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Calibrating_the_CPU_temperature -
Can you post your config for each printer? What thermistor are you using? What does the temp graph look like while printing? Have you redone the PID tuning?
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Are you certain it is the hot end PID that triggers this, not the bed PID? The bed PID would be much more likely to.
Duet WiFi hardware designer and firmware engineer
Please do not ask me for Duet support via PM or email, use the forum
http://www.escher3d.com, https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com -
@dc42 said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
Are you certain it is the hot end PID that triggers this, not the bed PID? The bed PID would be much more likely to.
it is, absolutely not, a heated bed, cause it does not have any... no need for it, on a pla-only printer
@phaedrux said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
Can you post your config for each printer? What thermistor are you using? What does the temp graph look like while printing? Have you redone the PID tuning?
configs has nothing to do to with it, but youre welcome to have a copy of it.. but it is not that, since it happend during a print.... only thing that actually made it possible to get rid of the waves, was a brand new board...
yes ofc i have..... i have done everything and more than imaginable... it doesnt do any difference changing anything to the heatercontrol.... i have changed EVERY PART possible....NOTHING could make the waves better or worse - only microstepping and gearing changed the distance between the waves... - which indicates to me that the issue is NOT mechanical.. this is repeatable and redoable on both duets, on both my delta and ultimaker 2,...
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@veti said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
@johnjohn1990 said in Hotend pid makes motors pulsate:
I have just borrowed a brand new board from a buddy, and it doest not have these issues.. also, the MCU temp on this ned board never gets above 29c..... but both of my boards have a working temp of around 44-49c.....
that is within the range of the deviation.
see
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Calibrating_the_CPU_temperaturecould very well be, that it is inside the range... but it used to be colder/have had my duets for 1.5 year-2years).. so it could be a sign, of some internal mishaps, vercurrent, something... but the temp increase happend around the same time as the issues started... i noticed the hotter mcu temp, and noticed that my printer could not keep up with the same speeds on retract(just to take an example), that made my z motor skip or take extra steps.... but i thought it was just due to the higher temps in spring/summer, than in the winter..... but no, as soon as i turn on the board, the temp fly's up to that range, that is not normal...
i know these packages are made to last pretty high temps, but theory isnt everything..... - your cpu in your pc, can also die due to too high heat, even though youve never hit the max temp..... but i agreee, it should be inside range... but since it happend, out of nowhere, long time ago, i believe it is not normal, in my case... usually, when this happens to bga chips, it is due to power delivery or a short.... -
heres my um2 config
; Configuration file for Duet WiFi (firmware version 1.20 or newer)
; executed by the firmware on start-up
;
; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool on Thu Mar 22 2018 22:44:44 GMT+0100 (Rom, normaltid); General preferences
G90 ; Send absolute coordinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves; Network
M550 P"Jellybean" ; Set machine name
M552 S1 ; Enable network
M587 S"Tilgin-YEnb6qLrkmkd" P"teyWohNsSE5a9" ; Configure access point. You can delete this line once connected
M586 P0 S1 ; Enable HTTP
M586 P1 S1 ; Disable FTP
M586 P2 S1 T0 ; Disable Telnet; Drives
M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16:16 I1
M569 P0 S1 ; Drive 0 goes forwards
M569 P1 S0 ; Drive 1 goes backwards
M569 P2 S0 ; Drive 2 goes forwards
M569 P3 S0 ; Drive 3 goes forwards
M569 P4 S0 ; Drive 4 in reverse - E1
M92 X200.00 Y200.00 Z400.00 E2750:2750 ; Set steps per mm
M566 X600.00 Y600.00 Z200.00 E50.00:50 ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X30000.00 Y30000.00 Z3000.00 E30000.00:30000 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X1500.00 Y1500.00 Z200.00 E1000.00:1000 ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1100.00 E600.00 I30 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
M84 S30 ; Set idle timeout
M593 F80 ; cancel ringing at 80Hz; Axis Limits
M208 X0 Y0 Z0 S1 ; Set axis minima
M208 X227 Y226 Z330 S0 ; Set axis maxima; Endstops
M564 H0
;M574 Z0 S1 I1
;M574 X1 Y2 S0
M574 X1 Y2 Z1 S0 ; Set active high endstops; Z-Probe
;M558 P7 X0 Y0 Z1 H5 F900 T16000 ; Set Z probe type to 5, the axes for which it is used and the dive height
;G31 X-20 Y0 Z0.2 ; Set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
;M557 X24:220 Y24:220 S15
;G29 S0; Heaters
M301 H0 S1.00 P10 I0.1 D200 T0.4 W180 B30 ; Use PID on bed heater (may require further tuning)
M305 P0 T100000 B4138 C0 R4700 ; Set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 0
M143 H0 S140 ; Set temperature limit for heater 0 to 140C
M305 P1 X201 ; Configure thermocouple for heater 1
M143 H1 S350 ; Set temperature limit for heater 1 to 350C
M307 H1 A256.4 C98.2 D7.3 S1.00 V24.5 B0
M305 P2 X201; Fans
M106 P0 S0 I0 F50 H-1 ; Set fan 0 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off
M106 P1 S0.35 I0 F255 H1 T50 ; Set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned on; Tools
;M563 P0 D0 H1 ; Define tool 0
;G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Set tool 0 axis offsets
;G10 P0 R0 S0 ; Set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0CM563 P0 D1 H1 ; Define tool 1
G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Set tool 1 axis offsets
G10 P0 R0 S0 ; Set initial tool 1 active and standby temperatures to 0C; Automatic power saving
M911 S10 R11 P"M913 X0 Y0 G91 M83 G1 Z3 E-5 F1000" ; Set voltage thresholds and actions to run on power loss; Custom settings are not configured
; Miscellaneous
M501 ; Load saved parameters from non-volatile memory
;M574 D0 S0.02 -
delta config - m666 m665 is in override
; Configuration file for Duet WiFi (firmware version 1.21)
; executed by the firmware on start-up
;
; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool v2 on Tue Aug 20 2019 01:00:52 GMT+0200 (Centraleuropæisk sommertid); General preferences
G90 ; Send absolute coordinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M665 R102 L216.5 B90 H304 ; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
M666 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Put your endstop adjustments here, or let auto calibration find them; Network
M550 P"Deltabot" ; Set machine name
M552 S1 ; Enable network
M587 S"Tilgin-YEnb6qLrkmkd" P"teyWohNsSE5a9" ; Configure access point. You can delete this line once connected
M586 P0 S1 ; Enable HTTP
M586 P1 S1 ; Enable FTP
M586 P2 S1 ; Enable Telnet; Drives
M569 P0 S1 ; Physical drive 0 goes forwards
M569 P1 S1 ; Physical drive 1 goes forwards
M569 P2 S1 ; Physical drive 2 goes forwards
M569 P3 S0 ; Physical drive 3 goes forwards
M569 P4 S0
M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1 ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
M92 X100.00 Y100.00 Z100.00 E160.00:280 ; Set steps per mm
M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E400.00:400 ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X30000.00 Y30000.00 Z30000.00 E6000.00:600 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X3000.00 Y3000.00 Z3000.00 E9000.00:9000 ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X1000.00 Y1000.00 Z1000.00 E800.00:1600 I30 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
M84 S30 ; Set idle timeout; Axis Limits
M208 Z0 S1 ; Set minimum Z; Endstops
M574 X2 S1
M574 Y2 S1
M574 Z2 S1; Z-Probe
M558 P4 H2 F120 T6000 I1 ; Set Z probe type to unmodulated and the dive height + speeds
G31 P500 X0 Y0 Z18 ; Set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
M556 S50 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Set orthogonal axis compensation parameters
M557 R60 S10 ; Define mesh grid; Heaters
M305 P0 T100000 B4138 R4700 ; Set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 0
M143 H0 S120 ; Set temperature limit for heater 0 to 120C
M305 P2 T100000 B4138 R4700 ; Set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 1
M143 H1 S280 ; Set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C
M143 H2 S280 ; Set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C; Fans
M106 P1 S0.4 I0 F255 H2 T50 ; Set fan 0 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned on
M106 P0 S0 I0 F255 H-1 ; Set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off
M106 P2 S0 I0 F255 H-1 ; Set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off; Tools
M563 P0 D1 H2 ; Define tool 0
G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Set tool 0 axis offsets
G10 P0 R0 S0 ; Set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C; Automatic saving after power loss is not enabled
; Custom settings are not configured
M501
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why would my config be relative, when i already have tested that it works fine with a new board ? - just wondering..
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It just gives a clearer picture of how the printer is configured and can sometimes highlight other related or unrelated issues.
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@johnjohn1990 how quickly does the MCU temperature rise from cold when you turn on? Also sorry to be a pain but can you try one of the boards with nothing plugged in and powered only by USB to see if the same temperature rise is observed?
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You said that a light on the printer is flashing or pulsating when the PID kicks in. What light is that, and how is it powered?
