quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi
-
@WilcoE said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@bartolomeus Got a BMG Clone extruder.. when i do a steps calibration 530 it's the numer what it takes to get 100 MM filement out of it. If i ask for 100 MM
The steps for z and y are changed to get a calibration cube of almost 20x20x20
Did you calibrate the extruder with or without the hotend connected?
-
@jay_s_uk said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@WilcoE said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@bartolomeus Got a BMG Clone extruder.. when i do a steps calibration 530 it's the numer what it takes to get 100 MM filement out of it. If i ask for 100 MM
The steps for z and y are changed to get a calibration cube of almost 20x20x20
Did you calibrate the extruder with or without the hotend connected?
With hotend connected. Measured the filament which goes in
-
@WilcoE hier ook
-
@bartolomeus said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@WilcoE hier ook
haha, post morgen weer
Will post tomorrow more info and pictures from process -
@WilcoE said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@jay_s_uk said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@WilcoE said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@bartolomeus Got a BMG Clone extruder.. when i do a steps calibration 530 it's the numer what it takes to get 100 MM filement out of it. If i ask for 100 MM
The steps for z and y are changed to get a calibration cube of almost 20x20x20
Did you calibrate the extruder with or without the hotend connected?
With hotend connected. Measured the filament which goes in
Well thats one issue right there. Extruder calibration is to be carried out with no hotend connected. Back pressure, the speed you feed the filament in, any flexibility if its bowden fed etc all affect the number of steps required.
As its a BMG clone, I suggest changing your steps to 415 and sticking with it. -
@jay_s_uk said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
Well thats one issue right there. Extruder calibration is to be carried out with no hotend connected.
Where did you read that???
I have never seen or read anything that says the hotend should NOT be connected.
Thanks.
Frederick
-
@fcwilt said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@jay_s_uk said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
Well thats one issue right there. Extruder calibration is to be carried out with no hotend connected.
Where did you read that???
I have never seen or read anything that says the hotend should NOT be connected.
Thanks.
Frederick
It's the best way to ensure back pressure doesn't affect the calculation. Otherwise you'd have to extrude really slowly which would take forever.
He probably calibrated at 5mm/s and we know the affects that can have on the amount of filament fed in otherwise we couldn't have linear advance
Owns various duet boards and is the main wiki maintainer for the Teamgloomy LPC/STM32 port of RRF. Assume I'm running whatever the latest beta/stable build is
-
Another thing, looks like you used the wrong thermistor values. Ender 3 uses this setting in Marlin: "100k thermistor - best choice for EPCOS 100k (4.7k pullup)". If you chose this thermistor in the reprapconfigurator you get these values:
M305 P0 T100000 B4092 R4700 ; set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 0
M305 P1 T100000 B4092 R4700 ; set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 1After changing these values, re-tune your PID for bed & hotend.
-
@jay_s_uk said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
It's the best way to ensure back pressure doesn't affect the calculation. Otherwise you'd have to extrude really slowly which would take forever.
You didn't really answer my question.
I checked on a number of different sites and haven't found one (yet) that says to remove the hotend.
All of them said that is was necessary to test calibration under normal operating conditions since those are the conditions that would exist during printing.
Thanks.
Frederick
-
@fcwilt My take on it is that in any system which comprises several objects, one should always calibrate each individual object on a stand alone basis. That gives a baseline against which adjustments to the system as a whole can be made to obtain the desired result or effect. So in the case of our extrusion system, we have several objects which come together to make up the whole. What we commonly refer to as the extruder is one object and what we commonly refer to as the hot end is another (so too is the thermistor). The problem with calibrating the extruder and changing the steps per mm to obtain a certain amount of filament movement with the hot end fitted, is that we are then making adjustments to one object within a system in order to obtain a certain result for the system as whole. And we know that things like hot end temperature will affect the viscosity of the filament which will affect the resistance that is imparted on the extruder. As will the speed at which we try to push through the filament and as will the nozzle diameter too. So if one used the steps per for the extruder, at a certain temperature, with certain size nozzle, to calibrate the system as whole, then that calibration will not be accurate for other hot end temperatures, filament speeds, or nozzle sizes. But if we calibrate the steps per mm for the extruder without the hot end, then we eliminate the other variables. If then we find that the system as whole is either over or under extruding, we can simply use the extrusion multiplier or use non-linear extrusion to change the characteristics of the system as whole, to compensate for differences which might be due to nozzle size, temperature, flow rate etc...
-
@deckingman said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@fcwilt My take on it is that in any system...
I see no point in checking the extruder without the hotend. It doesn't matter if the extruder works perfectly on it's on, it has to work with the hotend in place and under actual working conditions.
If calibration should be done without the hotend then all of those sites describing the procedure are wrong and I find that unlikely.
My experience is that the suggested steps/mm value provided by the manufacture has been correct and I have merely verified that the system is working as designed.
Frederick
-
@fcwilt @deckingman described exactly what the point is. If you calibrate the extruder with the hotend, your esteps are only valid for that particular combination of filament-temp-speed-nozzle. If you change any of those, your estep calibration, might (slightly) be off. The slight difference might not be noticeable, but a precise setup requires calibration of e-steps without the hotend attached. Flow calibration can then be used to adjust for different filaments and print settings.
-
My take on this:
- I use the E steps/mm given by the manufacturer when the manufacturer is able to state it with confidence, otherwise I measure E steps/mm either with the hot end disconnected or at a slow filament feed rate e.g. 1mm/sec for 1.75mm filament.
- In practice, different filaments seem to swell by different amounts, so I often find I need to adjust the extrusion multiplier to get best results. I use top solid infill to judge it.
-
@bartolomeus said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
@fcwilt @deckingman described exactly what the point is. If you calibrate the extruder with the hotend, your esteps are only valid for that particular combination of filament-temp-speed-nozzle.
My experience says otherwise, at least in relation to real world changes. I have found no significant differences with a given type of filament over the typical range of temperatures one might use.
Naturally I need to set the extrusion multiplier at times for different materials.
But you have to verify that your extruder and hotend work together. It matters not if the steps/mm is spot on with no hotend attached. You need to know how it performs with different materials at different temps, thus the need to check calibration with the hotend attached.
But I guess all those sites could be wrong.
Frederick
-
@fcwilt But if you calibrate the extruder on it's own, then you take away any variables that having a hot end connected might introduce. If you then find that you get under extrusion with the hot end connected, then the difference is caused by something to do with the hot end, not the extruder. Changing what is a known and good calibration of the extruder on it's own, to compensate for errors introduced by the hot end, is simply using two "wrongs" to make one "right". We have a number of tools to make that compensation for hot end vagaries as I explained - extrusion multiplier, non linear extrusion, etc.
.......and yes, IMO "all those sites" probably are wrong - that wouldn't be anything new as far as internet based "information" is concerned.
-
my take on it.
what is the purpose of an extruder and hot end?
To push a controlled amount of molten plastic at a specific speed so that that controlled amount can be deposited in an exact location.
so to me the end result (the calibrated amount of molten plastic) is more important.
in my case i build each unit to carry out a specific task e.g a unit to print nothing but PETG etc etc so I have always calibrated in the method David describes above, I.E. heating to operating temp and pushing filament through it the slowest speed possible, that method has never failed me.
but that's the thing about opinions everyone has one and everyone thinks their's is correct when in reality there is more than one way to do things and each of us just have to accept and respect that. Now facts, well that is a completely different discussion.
-
Perhaps I am not being clear.
I am not adjusting the steps/mm to achieve a specific result. I am testing the performance of the complete extruder system at various speeds, temperatures and materials to determine exactly how it is behaving under real world conditions.
The behavior of the extruder only is of no interest since you cannot print very well without a hotend.
Frederick
Printers: A FT-5 with the 713 upgrade bits, a custom MarkForged style, a small Utilmaker style, a small CoreXY from kit and a E3D MS/TC setup. Various hotends. Using Duets (2 and 3) running 3.4.6
-
Guys,
Thanks all for the answers and other information.
My latest print with extruder steps on 415, jerk settings lower and y and z steps to 80Result is almost the same. Not much diffent
Changed now the thermistor settings and also did a temp calibration.
Now printing a new train, will post picture within 2 hours -
@fcwilt said in quality issues with Ender 3 and Duet Wifi:
Perhaps I am not being clear.
I am not adjusting the steps/mm to achieve a specific result. I am testing the performance of the complete extruder system at various speeds, temperatures and materials to determine exactly how it is behaving under real world conditions.
The behavior of the extruder only is of no interest since you cannot print very well without a hotend.
Frederick
I agree with this, why you might ask. Symbiosis is why because one without the other means the system won't carry out the intended purpose of the two separate parts. Akin to entering a one legged man into an ass kicking contest.
-
One last go at this.
Let us suppose that you've just built a machine and you start to commission it. And let us suppose that you won't bother to set the steps per mm for extruder on it's own - you'll just wait and do everything as one entire assembly. When you go to set the steps per mm, you find that you need to use say 20% more than the manufacturer states for that extruder. Or maybe you don't have any data so you just accept whatever value you get with the hot end fitted. Then later you find that you have yours set much higher than anyone else using the same set up. Do you question the result or do you just say "that's what it needs so that's what I'll use"? (even though the prints turn out like crap).
Or maybe you have the sense to realise that if you need a much higher value than anyone else, then there might be something wrong. So where do you start to look? A logical thing to do would be to check the extruder on it's own to see if the fault lies in the hot end or the extruder. Low and behold, it's much better. Why is that you may wonder? On further investigation you find there is a small piece of swarf or some other debris in the nozzle. That's the reason why you had to set the steps per mm so high - because that partial blockage was making the extruder slip.
Had you set the steps per mm for the extruder alone in the first place, you would have immediately known that there was a problem with the hot end as soon as you started to print something. As it is, you've started off by applying an inaccurate value to the extruder to compensate for a fault in the hot end.
It matters not to me how others do what they do. But in terms of advising others - well I've stated the reasons why I think one method is better than another - let the OP decide which method he thinks is preferable.
