Bed levelling (and also print surface discussion).
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Deckingman, you are not alone. I have never gotten the PrintBite to work properly. Have tried it in as many ways as possible, and it worked every now and then. it is extremely critical to the first layer thickness. All the tests and things I have tried confirm to me personally that is it simple FR4.
I am now using Filaprint. That is a little more forgiving in the first layer dimension, but it is a bit more tricky to maintain. No acetone allowed, at all. Water or 100% pure alcohol. I don't know about the PEI coating, never really tested it for that. I doubt it though.
Other surfaces I have tried are Geckotek, was ok for PLA, but hey, what isn't?
Then I have received a piece of BuildTak for when I want to print PC-Max and am now trying out Flatforce. This is interesting stuff in the sense that it is a plate of carbon fiber, approx 3 mm thick. It grips mechanically. And it grips very very well. A bit too good. One of the reasons is grips is because it has little holes in it, so the filament oozes into the holes and that holds it.
Translation: You will always have to post-process the bottom layer. It simply is not flat.Add to that plain Glass and it seems I have been testing 5 different print surfaces and none are perfect so far. What I understand is that PEI comes closest, but if you are printing nylon or such, you will still need to work with glue or such again. The perfect print bed surface remains a holy grail.
Wonder how Brian is getting on with the Lokbuild. It seems to be pretty universal. I feel a 6th buildplate test coming up. Sigh! -
I understand all your frustrations. I have a print bed 305 X 610mm and have been fighting adhesion issues for a long time. The bed is 13mm machined cast aluminum (Cast is more temperature stable). One of the issues with aluminum is that as you heat it up it does expand and it does deform. This has been a headache for me for a long time. Simple 5 point compensation has been working not to bad. The mesh compensation still has a few issues that I'm trying to overcome. Initially I covered the aluminum with kapton tape and in most cases it worked sort of (Corners were pulling up on larger prints). Then out of a brain storm and because I had some click lock flooring tile (vinyl backing) I tried that. Placed it on my bed heated to 110C and printed on it….Worked great however when I printed another project that was larger there was no way of getting the part off (by the way these are all ABS prints that I'm taking about). Back to the drawing board. The next thing that I tried was a 15mm thick granite by itself it didn't work very well... but it was flat and didn't warp being heated. Lets try hairspray on granite. Perfect....the prints stuck and I was able to print a fairly large print without issues (make sure that your ABS is dry if it isn't you will run into all sorts of adhesion issues. I put spools into a dryer made specifically for FFF printing while I print). Next test lets just see if I can print on just the aluminum with hair spray.....worked perfect....All these years and I have been fighting issues with first layer adhesion and simple hair spray fixed it. Go figure.
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Not sure if any of you have ever heard of Flesk3D, I have never had adhesion issues with it using PLA, ABS, or PETG while using it and the parts just pop off when you flex the removable plate.
The problem I encountered was the frosted build surface does not work with the IR probe. So at the moment I am using a glass surface.
I just recently read a forum post where someone said that the Plesk3D build plate is just sanded Polycarbonate. So I ordered PC 4mm thick black sheet.
I am busy with other stuff at the moment so I have not got around to cutting it to size and sanding the surface but I will report back if it works (will be a hell of a lot cheaper to have multiple swappable build plates if it does)
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Let us know how you get on with it. Now that I use my nozzle for Z homing rather than DCs probe, I getting on just fine with plane glass and 3Dlac or even blue tape - (DC's otherwise excellent probe used to be affected by the 3Dlac).
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If I may offer a correction for accuracy, without creating a fuss.
Lykle, no PrintBite is NOT FR4 and the comment is somewhat offensive and uninformed. Seems your "tests" were pretty basic. I wish epoxies were that simple, without so many hundreds of variants, perhaps you think they are simple? (or maybe some other agenda behind the comment). Is your carbon plate and filaprint also not epoxy based?
Yes PrintBite is epoxy based, and has a glass reinforcement instead of CF or cotton or paper. Yes a slightly elevated temp is required on the old material, due to its insulating properties. To say "much higher" as Brian puts it, is an unnecassary exageration (lets face it, probably driven by other agendas aswell). Oddly another respected member here rates it quite highly. Clearly a difference of opinion, one of which is neutral, two others which arent.
There are many happy users of PrintBite and when used correctly it is one of the best materials around. I wouldnt have researched or continued its development, nor would I be selling it otherwise. There are many surfaces available, to suit all tastes and abilities.
Peace
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If I may offer a correction for accuracy, without creating a fuss.
Lykle, no PrintBite is NOT FR4, seems your tests werent very good. I wish epoxies were that simple and you think they are all the same, then perhaps this might demonstrate some lack of knowledge (or other intent behind the comment).
Yes PrintBite is epoxy based, and has a glass reinforcement. Yes a slightly elevated temp is required on the old material, partly due to its insulating properties. To say "much higher" is an unnecassary exageration (probably driven by other agendas)
There are many happy users of PrintBite and when used correctly it is one of the best materials around. Otherwise I wouldnt have researched or continued its development, nor would I be selling it.
Peace
Bit late to the Party Jason I have given up on Printbite it defo seemed to wear out and lost it's appeal over time and the fact that it wasn't that good with IR Sensing has just made me change
Sorry but thats the way of it
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OK Jason,
I stand corrected. -
Doug thats cool. (I only just saw these comments above).
Horses an courses for print surfaces. Oddly PrintBite doesnt actually wear out or degrade, but it must be treated correctly to maintain its performance, I think our new Black version will take care of IR issues. But also work equally well with touch probes.
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I get on fine with printbite and am a long term user. The surface temperature needs to be the correct temperature for your material so it does take slightly higher indicated temperature to achieve it. However the effect of this is the release temperature is higher, which is more convenient and means parts come off without a knife, a freezer or a flexible build plate.
Its a balance, the AndOrNot surface I recently tested sticks like glue to anything with moderate temperatures, but at room temperature it does not easily release the parts. So I'd use it for some very thin contact area part which was a huge risk of poor adhesion from shrinkage, but I'd expect a bit of sweat to get it off the buildplate, printbite as my daily drive is a doddle to use.
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It's true the release was awesome with PrintBite (it just wasn't connected anymore once bed cooled down).
My only reason to switch away from it was the issues I had with IR sensor (which as I've said before was probably because I had it on raw aluminium). I switched back to PEI as thats what I'd had the best results with beforehand.
I'm still looking for something that will work without heated bed (awaiting for some black polycarb to arrive at the moment).
I feel kinda like there is no perfect surface for all filament types though..
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I'm quite sure there is not a perfect surface for all current filaments (or all future ones either). I'm not sure any surface will be able to rule them all it will always be a balance between
-cost
-what it will adhere to
-how well it adheres and at what temperature
-how well it releases and at what temperature
-how durable it is
-how easy is it to apply/remove from the substrate
and I'm sure many other factors. -
hello, these below are print surfaces that I have tested a while back ago with heatbed. it is my own observation and thus my own opinion. I have since settled for non heated bed solution and just stick with PLA only happy as clamp
- PEI sheet from Amazon –> stick to MIC6 ( was never able to experience that "print just pop off" when finished. )
- PEI dauerdruckplatten from Germany --> love this plate and they are indeed very durable. but seems to require higher bed temperature to stick
- PrintBite --> I actually prefer this one over both PEI variation. my printbite stick with lower temperature than I would have used with PEI and at the end it "pop off"
- Buildtak --> the worse... stuck too well can can't even get off
- zebraplate and zebra skin --> more durable than buildtak and last way longer. I was able to remove print stuck too well using hammer without tearing off the zebra surface.
- bluetape --> yeah it works but I think we all should move on from this tape
- regular glass --> keep needing to use glue and it gets messy fast so not my preferred solution.
- lokbuild --> received but have not test it yet
cheers
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To be honest, i've tried Kapton-Tape, Blue-Tape, BuildTak, Glas and now on all 3 Printers of mine i'm using FilePrint.
It's a high price Thermoplastic with a Transfer-Sheet and it is working amazing. PLA with 55°c Bed and 205°c Nozzle, ABS with 95°c Bed and 235°c Nozzle is fantastic for me.
PLA and also ABS will stick bombastic but as soon as the temperature drops below 30°c it will loose itself. No need to pull on parts or using sharp-tools to loosen the parts (as on Buildtak sometimes).
Have never had a failed print due to layer adhesion. Never. No warping on ABS.
Simple rules: No Fingers on the Sheet, no sharp tools, no Aceton/Isopropanol or similar things. Only water to clean.
And they work absolutely great with the IR Probe from David.
Cheers
MoS-tekknix -
I have three printers, each one using a different surface:
My delta uses PEI heated to 70C indicated (in reality more like 55-60C in top of the PEI). I wipe the PEI with isopropanol between prints. Getting the print to release is often a problem, usually resolved either with a small hammer or by putting the bed+print in the freezer.
My Cartesian printer uses plain glass, heated to 65C indicated (in reality more like 60C on top of the glass). I don't use a coating, I just moisten it with vinegar using a kitchen towel before each print, and the brands of PLA that I use stick to it well. The print pops off when the bed cools.
My SCARA printer doesn't have a bed, so I just put blue tape on the desk in front of it and print on that. I use Rigidink PLA+ in that machine (I haven't tried regular PLA in it yet) and it sticks really well. On glass and PEI I find PLA+ sticks much too well and the print won't come off.
For Z probing, I use the smart effector in the delta and the IR sensor in the other two. The IR sensor works well with uncoated glass if you use a matt black backing behind the glass, and works very well with the blue tape.
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I have three printers, each one using a different surface:
My SCARA printer doesn't have a bed, so I just put blue tape on the desk in front of it and print on that. I use Rigidink PLA+ in that machine (I haven't tried regular PLA in it yet) and it sticks really well. On glass and PEI I find PLA+ sticks much too well and the print won't come off.
I have had pretty good luck with PLA+ on my PEI at 60C as long as I let it cool. Interesting how these things vary.
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As the OP of this thread, having tried all sorts of surfaces, I've settled on just using plain glass heated to around 50 degC with a quick squirt of 3DLac. I haven't yet found a filament that it doesn't work with. That's PLA, PLA/PAH, PET-G (various), Taulman T Glass, and E3D Edge. Bed temperature doesn't seem to matter much - anything from 50 to 60 works and it's also very forgiving of first layer height. In fact, it works best if after homing the nozzle is 0.05mm or so above the bed, rather than just touching. Quite the opposite of a lot of surfaces which need the first layer to be squashed. So no "Elephants foot". When the print finishes, I slide out the glass and wait for the "crack" sound whereby the object just falls off. If I'm impatient, I give the object a sharp tap before it has cooled and that works too.
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I have a piece of 0.8mm PEI sheet that I'm about to attach to my glass bed.
Has anyone tried printing on both sides of the glass/pei laminated type print bed? So if your printing PETG you can print on the PEI side, but if your going to print PLA just flip the glass bed over and print on the glass side?
My print bed is a silicone heater underneath a 6mm thick aluminum spreader. On top of this is a thin (maybe 1-2mm) layer of a rubbery Thermal Transfer material used for gaskets we had at work. Then a glass bed and now a PEI sheet.
My other printer has a GeckoTek print bed. Its coated spring steel plates mounted to a magnetic base. Works amazing in that the spring steel plates can be bent to pop off any print even when warm. The downside is petg doesnt stick the greatest, and the magnets dont hold the plate perfectly flat across its surface.
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Well, I feel I must chip in with a rather surprising and novel surface which no one has mentioned that is great for plain PLA on an unheated bed, particularly if your bed isn't 100% flat. You tend to get great first layers with this, even with an uneven bed due to the nap of the fibres…. what, I hear you cry?!
d-c-fix
Sticky Back Plastic (self adhesive vinyl film) Black Velour is amazingly effective, lasts a reasonable length of time, gives a lovely soft 'furry' texture on the base the first few prints (excellent for vases, boxes, etc) and best of all, it's as cheap as chips for any size. Just spray your bed with water, stick it on, smooth out the bubbles with a hard edge. That's it, seriously, put your prejudices aside and try it! At that price, there's no risk, right? Particularly good for printing black PLA, for obvious reasons! I only wish they did it in other colours.As I say, it's particularly good for unheated print beds that use removable glass (better than buildtak, IMO). Don't have a heated bed on the printer I use it on, but it continues to work OK even after the first furriness has worn off. It's so cheap, if you want to change it you can and you don't feel guilty.
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Interesting! I expect it will work well with the IR sensor too. I have ordered some to test.
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That would be a great surface choice for printing on tables/floor/whatever with the Scara or hangprinter at a show.
