effector tilting into bed on print

dc42

@timvukman said in effector tilting into bed on print:

The effector goes off to a spot between my X and Z columns and lowers, but not enough to trip the Z switch, and then it moves left to just past the Z column and dips down again without triggering. It then centers and triggers.

If you have deployprobe.g and retractprobe.g files in /sys that you didn't create yourself, delete them.

Danal

Looking at the printer, Z tower (motor, endstop) in the back, X to your left, Y to your right.

Then check movement. Make all moves with web control, if any validation step fails, stop and report back:

Home All (or G28) Validation: Proper home move.
Move Z downward, so web commands will be "negative" buttons. Move -50. Validation: Effector moves down, and stays centered between towers.
Move Y +100. Validation: Effector should move STRAIGHT TOWARD Z TOWER; and effector does not change height above bed at all. Yes, confusingly enough, Y+ is straight toward Z tower.
Move Y -100. Validation: Effector moves back to center, does not change height above bed.
Move X +100. Validation: Effector moves to a position NOT aligned with ANY tower... it will be between the Z and Y towers, about 2/3 toward the Y tower. (Of course, it is 90 degrees from the Y axis we found in step(3)... and 90 degrees is about 2/3 off from the 120 degree spacing of the towers). Height above bed should not change.

That validates every kind of move.

TimVukman

Home All (or G28) Validation: Proper home move.
Confirmed to have worked properly and registered in the system (web buttons Home X, Home Y, and Home Z turned blue. X is 0. Y is 0. Z is 198

Move Z downward, so web commands will be "negative" buttons. Move -50. Validation: Effector moves down, and stays centered between towers.
Confirmed that effector moved down 5 shots of 10 and is still centered. X is 0. Y is 0. X is Z is 148

Move Y +100. Validation: Effector should move STRAIGHT TOWARD Z TOWER; and effector does not change height above bed at all. Yes, confusingly enough, Y+ is straight toward Z tower.
Effector has moved to sit directly in front of the Z column. Height is 148. X is 0, Y is 80. Diagonal rods are almost, but not quite vertical.

Move Y -100. Validation: Effector moves back to center, does not change height above bed.
Effector has moved back to about center. Height is 148 X is 0, Y is -15

Move X +100. Validation: Effector moves to a position NOT aligned with ANY tower... it will be between the Z and Y towers, about 2/3 toward the Y tower. (Of course, it is 90 degrees from the Y axis we found in step(3)... and 90 degrees is about 2/3 off from the 120 degree spacing of the towers). Height above bed should not change.
It looks about right. X is 84.1 Y is -12.6 Z is 148

I took the top apart before I did what was above, because I had a small gap on one rail.

I had my motors / columns as described above which mean that I needed to swap X with Y to match the positions as you described them. I swapped the end stops as well.

One significant observation came when I removed the bed to trace the wires. On the left side, the bracket that clips on the rail and holds the female nut for the bed was not sitting down flat on the rail. It look like one end bent into the side of the rail. There was a definite fold line in the clip. I straightened that and put the clip back in place. It is now sitting flat. I believe that to be cause of the problem, IE the be was 1/8" higher there.

I ran Auto Delta Configuration from the browser interface. The start is not registered in the G-Code Console. There are no messages indicating pass, fail, or error in the G-Code Console.

There have been no changes in Config-Override.g.

I noticed that in my bed.g file, I had entered the radius as 10 instead of 100.

Fixed, created a new bed.g file.

The Auto Configuration certainly changed where it was probing and now appears appropriately spread out.

The was no on screen message during or after running Auto Configuration. There are no new messages in the G-Code Console. There are no changes or additions to the H values in the Bed.G file. There are no changes in Config-Override.g,

dc42

Did you see my earlier reply?

If you have deployprobe.g and retractprobe.g files in /sys that you didn't create yourself, delete them.

TimVukman

Hi dc42
Yes, I read it, but I did not delete the files as I forgot about it in swapping everything else around. I have now deleted the files and am pleased to report that I got a message on the screen and in G-Code console at the end of the AutoConfig.

"G32
Calibrated 6 factors using 10 points, deviation before 2.988 after 0.107"

M665 reported different settings than those that I entered in my Config.g.

**M665

Diagonal 360.200, delta radius 124.727, homed height 204.383, bed radius 85.0, X -0.501°, Y -4.385°, Z 0.000°**

**× M666

Endstop adjustments X2.88 Y1.39 Z-4.27, tilt X0.00% Y0.00%**

TimVukman

Ok
I ran Auto Configuration again, and I should not have done that.

My effector left the area defined by the bed. I killed it with emergency stop after one of the magnetic rods popped off the carriage. I don't think M500 was a good idea.

I have my original values for Config.g G31 written down.

Please advise as to how I should proceed. I will leave it alone until I hear back.

dc42

Your Y tower angle offset of more than 4 degrees sounds suspicious. If the 3 sides of your base and upper triangles are all of equal lengths, it should be much smaller than that.

Your endstop adjustments are also rather large, assuming you attempted to get all 3 endstop switches at more of less the same height (getting them equal to within 1mm isn't normally difficult).

What type of Z probe are you using?

TimVukman

When you mention y tower offset, are you referring to the -4.385 that was returned in M665?

This was an FLSun kit, so my verticals are all the same length(3) as are each of the cross members(9)

As I recall, the end stops were not too hard to adjust. Maybe I should redo them after all the moving I have been doing?

dc42

And what type of Z probe does it have?

TimVukman

The probe is a 3 pin switch that can be set to either normally open or normally closed.
The switch is on the side of the effector and is triggered by pushing the nozzle into the bed.

Is the Duet effector with carriages hard to install? I would like to stop pushing the nozzle into the bed to trigger it. It seems to really push on it around the outer diameter of the bed when all the rods are on an angle.

T3P3Tony

@timvukman The Smart effector has carriage adaptor that are sized to screw into "standard" linear rails that alot of the wheeled carriages are modelled on as well:

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Smart_effector_and_carriage_adapters_for_delta_printer#Section_Carriage_Adaptor_Dimensions

You will need to do some requiring to use it:
https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Smart_effector_and_carriage_adapters_for_delta_printer#Section_Connectors_and_Wiring

dc42

@timvukman said in effector tilting into bed on print:

The probe is a 3 pin switch that can be set to either normally open or normally closed.
The switch is on the side of the effector and is triggered by pushing the nozzle into the bed.

I suggest you watch carefully as it probes the bed, to see if you can see any reason why the height at which the probe triggers may change with different XY positions.

TimVukman

@t3p3tony
Hi:
I have reviewed that documentation in quite a bit of detail. As I read it, it indicates that it would support rails or wheels. My current factory setup has three wheels spread over a fair amount of vertical carriage height. The measurements for the duet carriages indicate that the wheels would be vertically closer together which I feel would be more stable. I have lots of extra wheels, so I feel that adding a fourth wheel would be fairly straight forward.

I am not a huge fan of trying to install crimp connectors on small wires / sockets. I'd like to feel comfortable that these are large enough to work with. I'm not as good as I once was with these things.

TimVukman

@dc42
I would think that the height must change at various XY positions to some degree, by virtue of the diagonal rods following pendulum arcs. I thought that was why there was an H value in the G30 codes so that offsets could be put in to level the effector.

I think I am still confused between calibration and height adjustments. The documentation shows a beautiful light green flat surface for the mesh. I get something that looks more like a coffee cup with lots of blue. I think it is all indicated above.

I honestly think that my tilting problem was the nozzle contacting the bed because the plastic clip on the bottom rail between the X and Z columns was not sitting flat. On that basis, I think it is "fixed"

I guess I don't get what Auto Configuration means. It doesn't seem like it is automatic since it changed values and now put the nozzle off the bed diameter.

dc42

If the height map is cup shaped, then most likely your delta radius is out. But that wouldn't result in an error of 4 degrees in one of the tower positions. Perhaps you should try using a smaller probing radius, at least for now.

TimVukman

Ok
I started over from the beginning.

I home my printer. I took out the little screws from the top of the carriages. My switches click at pretty much the exact same time.

My Z shows as 245 in DWC
I move Z down until it traps a piece of paper.
My Z shows as 34 in DWC
I issue a G92 Z0 to set that as my 0 height
I issue G30 S-1 to get my trigger height of 1.17
I issue an M500 to save the settings.
I power off the printer to give it time think about what it's going to do when I power it back up.

Power Up
Home All
Z registers 245

I have adjust my height to 216 since when I home it, it drops by 5. Once there, the actual distance to the bed surface is 211. If I send my printer z to 0, it is perfectly aligned on a sheet of paper.

I thought I should be able to print from here, but I can't. The nozzle digs into the bed.

So, I guess I need to run auto config, even though that screwed up all my settings last time.

No idea what I should do next.

Obviously there are people who have working delta printers. Also obvious is that some of these working printers are also using these boards as well..

Unless someone has a suggestion I am going to leave it for a bit, until I get the duet effector / carriage kits.

adavidm

@dc42 his probing radius is 10mm according to that bed.g. that doesn't look right but I don't think going smaller is going to help....

I think there is confusion over Cartesian coordinates Vs the naming of the three towers as X,Y and Z and that is causing a mismatch between expectation and reality, both in understanding the G31 offsets and the general movement of the effector.

adavidm

@timvukman

Tim, a couple of things to make sure we have the same terms of reference. Please don't take these questions as being patronising, it's just vitally important we are talking about the same things.

are you aware that the X, Y and Z labels of the towers have nothing whatsoever to do with the movement of the effector in Cartesian (X,Y,Z) space when talking about delta printers?

1a) if the answer to 1 is "yes" can you describe how you have connected the towers in terms of their relative position? In standard configuration, a single tower, Z is at the back in the centre. X is at the front-left and Y is at the front-right. Anything else will cause problems when we are giving you advice.

the X and Y offsets in G31 relate to Cartesian coordinates and have nothing to do with the towers.
you've configured a radius of 10mm in the bed.g configurator, was this intentional? That radius should be as large as you can reasonably manage without colliding with towers.

It sounds like you are very close to having a working solution so please don't give up. The magnetic arm solution with smart effector is awesome but it's essentially only going to solve the G31 offset issue you have, IMO.

adavidm

dc42

@timvukman said in effector tilting into bed on print:

I issue G30 S-1 to get my trigger height of 1.17
I issue an M500 to save the settings.

M500 does not save the trigger height in recent firmware versions. You need to edit the G31 command in config.g, setting the Z parameter to 1.17.

TimVukman

@adavidm
You cannot offend me and there is no reason to be concerned about what you say.
It is most obvious to me that there is a lack of understanding on my part. I am disappointed in that, based on how many times I have gone through the documentation and how many you tube videos I have watched. Having said that, my goal is to learn.

I realize that I can't say that something is moving in and X or Y direction relative to how I know those Axis in a cartesian model. I am trying to use the X Y and Z columns when describing directions of effector heading, unless I am using Z in the context of Height where 0 is the surface of the bed with the nozzle resting on a piece of paper. I have my printer facing me on a desk where I am looking between the X and Y columns with the Z column centered in the rear.
1a. I had to switch my X and Y column motors and end stops to match the description that I was given here, but X is to my left face on, and Y is to my right and Z is at the back.
I haven't really paid much attention to those offsets. I see that 11 in the X reference, but I have no idea why it is there. My bed is 220mm in diameter. From the DWC, the position reports X0 and Y0 when homed. I measured across X in the cartesian directions and my nozzle is at 120mm. I would think it should be 110mm to center. My Y value measures as 120mm front to back. I would think it should also be at 110mm
I suspect you are viewing an older version of bed.g. I noticed that and went back to the configurator and changed it to 100, to make sure I had a band around the perimeter of the bed that would keep my effector from contacting any of the drive belts or bed screws.

I sincerely appreciate the assistance and I will follow any instructions given to help isolate, troubleshoot and resolve this. Inclusion of information as to the "what and why" something is expected as a result for any part of this are appreciated

Bed.g is now:
; bed.g file for RepRapFirmware, generated by Escher3D calculator
; 10 points, 6 factors, probing radius: 100, probe offset (0, 0)
G30 P0 X0.00 Y100.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P1 X86.60 Y50.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P2 X86.60 Y-50.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P3 X0.00 Y-100.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P4 X-86.60 Y-50.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P5 X-86.60 Y50.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P6 X0.00 Y50.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P7 X43.30 Y-25.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P8 X-43.30 Y-25.00 Z-99999 H0
G30 P9 X0 Y0 Z-99999 S6