More strange pressure advance behaviour
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Ian, thanks for doing those tests. Can you look at that gcode file to see whether the extrusion speed really is constant? If the slicer is slightly mis-calculating the extrusion amounts so that they are not exactly proportional to the segment lengths, that could cause a problem.
I guess some sort of rounding error in the firmware is another possibility.
I'm tied up with other things for the rest of this week, so please remind me to look at it next weekend.
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Ian I think you might have something else at play here…. I do not have circle issues regardless of pressure advance setting.
Here are some photos (I printed these at 45mm/s with no reductions in speed regardless of feature because i like calibrating the printer without the slicer getting in the way)
and here was a half circle at 65mm/s
the first image was running pressure advance 0.2 with no retraction and the second was changed twice from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.132
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I dont have a photo of it but the small holes for the M3 screws came out perfect for that 65mm/s print as well
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@Whitewolf. That's interesting. If pressure advance is working normally for you then in a way that makes me feel better. At least we know it works differently for different setups so maybe we are in with a chance of finding what's causing my issues.
Could you do one quick test when you get chance? Print something with circles using 0.4 pressure advance just to see. I know that might be a high setting for your machine but if you get good circles, then we can be sure it's something else interacting with pressure advance. You don't have to print the entire object - you'll know straight away if it's screwy so you can abort after the first layer or two.
Off hand I can think of 3 possibilities
It could be slicer related as David has said - I'll check that out but which slicer are you using? I'm using slic3r.
It could be something to do with machine kinematics - mine is CoreXY, what is yours?
It could be firmware - I first noticed this with 1.19beta8. At the moment I'm unable to revert back to 1.18.1. to check if the problem is present there. Which version are you using?
Ian
Edit. There is a forth possibility. I'm using 3 extruders and I guess you just have the one?
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Yes just a single extruder, as far as slicer goes its S3D… that is what i was hinting at... open your slicer up do not do any reductions or optimizations this way the slicer does not get in the way of calibrating.
My printer is a Cartesan and much less weight than yours which could also be a factor.
Link an object you want me to print so you can do a side by side comparison... something with circles and long runs.
Ill print it at 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 pressure advance with retraction off
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Here was my slicer settings for the first photo the small white objects:
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Here were my settings for the second photo the clear x carriage:
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The speed override for small layers was also unchecked for both prints
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I also ran these prints with firmware settings similar to yours:
[c]M92 X80.00 Y80.00 Z2560.00 E97.009 ; Set steps per mm
M566 X833 Y583 Z3000 E1800:1800 ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X18000 Y18000 Z400 E3600:3600 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X833 Y583 Z3000 E1800:1800 ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X765 Y850 Z850 E850 I30 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent[/c]Obviously none of these firmware settings or slicer settings are ideal, its just how I have been testing pressure advance in an unrestricted way….. eventually I will move my accelerations to be 3000mm/m to be in line with the 300mm/s printing speed test article but I wanted to align everything with what you had to see the kind of results I could achieve with it.
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Previously I had much higher maximum speed changes and still had great results but not into the 120mm/s range…. So I lowered those for now but will eventually see how high I can push them.
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Also one of the reasons I dont want the slicer getting in the way of my printer tuning is because i dont want the printers optimum performance to be reliant on the slicer. In my opinion the slicer should only compensate for different filaments. By tuning the printer to a baseline on ABS or PLA for best quality at the highest speed possible then the slicer can then be brought into the picture for minor tweaks when needed between filaments and the same gcode could theoretically be used across a number of printers if they were all tuned in the same fashion and hence all giving the same great results regardless of kinematics.
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Which firmware version are you running?
As for slicer, I'm not going to start playing around with the settings that have taken my many hours over many months to optimise. The same applies to my other printer settings. My prints are just fine apart from a touch of over/under extrusion at the ends of long moves which pressure advance fixes but causes other issues.
If I have to choose, then I'll simply not use pressure advance and live with the over/under extrusion at the ends of long moves (I can always print slower to eliminate them if I have to). In any case, this has nothing to do with slicer speed. Whether it's first layer at 45mm/sec, inner perimeters at 90mm/sec, outer perimeters at 75mm/sec or small perimeters at 25mm/sec, they all exhibit exactly the same behaviour.
I think what David is hinting at is slicer behaviour in that there might be variations in extruder speed during small segmented moves which screw up or interfere with pressure advance. The only way to check that is to go through the gcode file, somehow find an arc, then check each X Y move and see if the E move is correspondingly proportional. That's proving hard to do so I think I'll create a simple 1 wall thick circular object, slice it and then check the gcode E moves which ought to be the same.
If they aren't then it will mean that pressure advance with Duet is slicer dependent. In which case I'll have to live without using pressure advance as slic3r is the best of a bad bunch when it comes to multiple (more than 2) extruders.
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Also one of the reasons I dont want the slicer getting in the way of my printer tuning is because i dont want the printers optimum performance to be reliant on the slicer. In my opinion the slicer should only compensate for different filaments. By tuning the printer to a baseline on ABS or PLA for best quality at the highest speed possible then the slicer can then be brought into the picture for minor tweaks when needed between filaments and the same gcode could theoretically be used across a number of printers if they were all tuned in the same fashion and hence all giving the same great results regardless of kinematics.
Of course, you should set up your basic printer parameters first but you'll find later on, when you've gained a bit more experience that slicer settings are very important and to some extent machine specific as well as object specific. Things like whether extra perimeters are needed, detecting thin walls, detecting bridge perimeters, whether you want to avoid crossing perimeters, seam position, infill type, whether you want a skirt and or brim, etc etc but speeds are especially important . To get the best out of your printer you'll find that you need different speeds for internal perimeters, external perimeters, small perimeters, top and bottom layers, infill, solid infill, support material, bridges etc.
Anyway, this is all getting way off topic.
Let's get back to pressure advance behaviour please.
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Does slic3r not have the concept of profiles and processes? With S3D I have known processes that work then i just add a new process that i open up for tuning the firmware. switching back is just a matter of changing processes and commenting out my test firmware settings.
With S3D the extruder speed gets modified if the box is checked for speed overrides for layers under "X" seconds but i run with this turned off.
I know in Cura there is something similar but called something completely different i just cant remember the name of it….
I have never used Slic3r but maybe there is something similar in it.
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Deckingman, maybe try the capricorn ptfe tube. the differences in amount of retraction and pressure advance needed are huge and the print quality is much better. As you can see by the following thread others who have installed Capricorn have experienced the same thing.
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Can we just keep this on topic please.
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Wasnt trying to derail the topic, there is obviously some difference that is causing pressure advance to perform differently for each of us. I was just wondering if maybe that difference is because of the PTFE tube. Which would make sense considering that is what pressure advance compensates for and why direct extruders use significantly lower pressure advance settings.
Your multi extruder setup could very well be more sensitive to the lack of tolerences in a standard PTFE tube. I do not have a multi extruder setup and mine as well as others definitly were.
Just trying to be helpful and brainstorm ideas, i dont have a diamond hotend in front of me to test those ideas which is why I am sharing them with you.
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The topic is about pressure advance screwing up circular perimeters and jerky carriage behaviour during those circular moves. How is PTFE tube going to affect XY carriage behaviour?
Edit. You still haven't told me what firmware version you are using - that would be useful info
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The same could be said about how pressure advance would affect xy behavior.
What I do know is that you use radically high pressure advance settings and are having issues. Obviously from my photos I do not struggle with those same issues. So I am trying to brainstorm things that might not have crossed your mind.
You say that you can turn pressure advance off and just live with pressure buildup and everything would be fine.
When I printed with high pressure advance and high retraction i had all kinds of strange things going on.
The effect of PTFE tolerences with a single extruder was huge and I can only imagine that effect gets amplified with the more entruders you add… if its the 3 or 5 extruder setup.
What if because of this higher sensitivity to tolerences that multi extruders have... that pressure advance isnt handling it well and it could all be resolved with a lower pressure advance settings and tighter tolerence tubes....
Just my thought process and what I would try if i had a Diamond hotend sitting in front of me, but I am of the type that tests all different configurations with different hardware .... it comes from my days of being a lab junkie in the isilon systems server farm.... i ran through a lot of itteration and testing of code on different platforms everyday before sending servers out into production.
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Oh for goodness sake! I get the same behaviour with 0.1 pressure advance and you don't with 0.2 so don't tell me it's because I'm using radically high values!
Watch the video - then you'll maybe understand the issue.
You still haven't told me what firmware version you are using which might be something useful.
This thread has now got completely diluted and off topic. I'll post no more and instead just pm David with my findings.
In fact - I'm out of here completely. Goodbye all and good luck…....
