Help to setup BMG clone extruder
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@droftarts said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
I have been wanting to try out the Bondtech extruder, but the price for something I planned to 'experiment' with meant that I've recently fitted a BMG clones to my Delta...
While I'm happy to hear that you now think the idea is good enough that you'll actually buy the genuine item from the small Swedish company that invented it, I really don't understand people buying clones of specialised products like this to evaluate them.
If the clone extruder had turned out to be rubbish, maybe you would have dismissed the Bondtech extruder based on the poor execution of the Chinese cloner. It's hardly a good way to see if a product is any good.
Then there's the simple fact that if people like Bondtech get sick of seeing their innovation stolen and people's cash going into the pockets of Chinese cloners instead of theirs, they are likely to stop making things for 3D printers and the market loses another innovator.
Of course, your money is your money and you are entitled to spend it as you wish. I'm just pointing out the effects of buying the cloner's products. The 3D printing world is not the first young market I've seen where the genuine innovators left to do something else which would actually put food on their table to the detriment of everyone in that market when they withdrew their innovation from it.
And before anyone says "I buy the clones because the original is too expensive", we're talking about hobby 3D printing here, not things which are essential to living. If people can't afford the hobby without encouraging the cloners, maybe they should find a cheaper hobby.
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You are right that buying the orignal is surely the best and you get better quality. But I also buy that but as you say my money is my money and as a hobby I got more than one and not cheap once. I cant buy everything original like I want to. But again you are right that I should do that.
It is always nice to get others input and answers.
BTW everything else is original on ALL 5 of my printers so hope that gives a little credit in your mind.
Thanks for your "answer"
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People need to tread with extreme caution on this topic. As this is a Duet3D hosted site I feel the admins have the right to dictate owners of clone Duets are not welcome to seek support here, fair enough.
However in terms of the effect of clones on the original company what is the difference between me buying second hand rather than new compared to me buying a clone? For instance in the cold light of day I would have to say the logical conclusion is likely to be I am causing just as much damage to Duet3D buying second hand and asking questions on here as I would be if I had bought a clone. I would like to think I am able to pitch in and help every now and again though balancing my value to this forum.
If we support this user in their infancy in the hobby now and lightly enthuse about the benefits of original products they are far more likely to remain, become active contributors and replace their sloppy cloned parts with genuine when they can afford to do so.
In terms of intellectual property we also need to be careful. Our hobby and in some cases our livelihoods were made possible by the expiration of a patent. Is the predominant failures of the cloners is to add any innovation to the product? Cost reduction could be classed as their innovation, they after all have tooled up for injection molding rather than plastic sintering? But yes without diving too deep into politics the cloners location and legal isolation/insulation leaves our manufacturers unable to compete on a cost basis. So really you are just highlighting the failings of free market economy and blaming the end consumer who has exercised their freedom of choice rather then the governments for failing to balance this inequality. For our companies it forces rapid innovation in order to still attract people to purchase direct, and ensures they do not sit for too long. Alas without further market control the sweat shops of the world have taken the cherry from the cake for product production. Development is tough, support is tough, and selling a stable product is supposed to be the easier money bit that has now less profitable.
Bondtech essentially adapted a type of mig wire feed to a polymer filament feed. If the E3Ds Hermes (that name tickles me!) is little more than using a no-idle-roller bontech design in a re-engineered housing (the tooling for injection molding thet the cloners have done is, after all a not insignificant amount of engineering effort) are we going to be as negative about people buying E3D Hermes over Bontech?
Edit: the cherry on the cake is lost by going open source, that is the nature of the beast. But the company benefits be developing a loyal user base that in turn supports other users. When this is established the original company benefits from this free support and development that would have otherwise need to be paid for. So the cherry is not given away for free, there is a benefit.
Edit 2: This is naturally a topic that will stoke many peoples emotions and provoke strong responses. I have been wanting to raise my opinion on the matter but I do not wish to make this personal. We are free to hold whatever view on the subject that we want to! In a strange sense this is both not the individuals fault, but all of ours.
Running 3 P3Steel with Duet 2. Duet 3 on the shelf looking for a suitable machine. One first generation Duet in a Logo/Turtle style robot!
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Confession time:
I have 2 cloned bontech extruders, but I plan to replace them as soon as my workload picks up to the point were I can pay for their replacement.
Likewise all of the boards I own at the moment are v0.6, or v0.8.5. 4 of them are second hand.
However when in a previous employment I had upgraded their v0.6 to a Duet Ethernet + Panel Due +Duex5, and a Bontech extruder. I can clearly see the benefit of the non cloned and more recent generations of systems. I'm not adversely pro clone or Luddite in nature.
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I don't think anyone has ever been turned away when seeking support for using a clone. They may get some gentle ribbing though.
The origins of RepRap has meant seeking out the cheapest parts possible to replicate as much as possible. RAMPS clones and cheap chinese vitamins have made a lot of the 3D printing market as it is viable. And without that market place there wouldn't be a market for Duet either.
Hopefully if people buy a clone and come here for support they feel welcomed and appreciate the support and in the future decide to make good on it and buy genuine.
However, if everyone decided that cost was the most important factor and only bought clones going forward how would Duet justify the R&D for new products? It's reasonable for supporting cloning to be discouraged, and there's valid arguments for supporting the innovators. The only real valid argument for buying a clone over genuine is to save a few bucks. We're not talk large sums here.
I don't think buying a clone should be vilified as badly as it has been in some comments sections around the internet. But a little bit of education and social pressure is warranted.
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@Phaedrux said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
... there's valid arguments for supporting the innovators.
A Donate link would be useful here.
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No arguments with either of you there!
I was going to be say it would be awesome if a proportion the 'balancing' tax on the clones at import went back to the original developers of the cloned open source items! Alas the logistics would be challenging.
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@DocTrucker Each individual has their own opinion of what is right and what is wrong and it's not my place to make moral judgements. But at the same time, I have my own set of values by which I run my own life. For that reason, if a person buys a clone then I personally will not offer to help them, because to do so would be helping the vendor or maker of the clone, which is against my own personal principles.
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@deckingman fair enough fella.
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@DocTrucker .......but buying used or second hand is OK in my book
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Edit: Nothing else on offer now you've a duet3 is there?...
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@DocTrucker said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
clone Duets
I would like to make this clear I do NOT have clone duet.
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@TPJensen Didn't mean to imply you had, sorry if it came across like that.
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@DocTrucker said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
@TPJensen Didn't mean to imply you had, sorry if it came across like that.
That is okay... dont worry I like your post and follow you 100%...
I have a mate that did buy his first printer 1½ years ago and he did buy alot of clone things and I helped as good as I could.... Now the same mate have only orig. parts and 6 printers.... Untill I started to help him he had given up and put his printer up for sale put with a little help he went from boring failed prints to good prints and he did thing is was fun and he has just ordered Ultimaker 2+ Extended.. So if your help one also with clone parts then it can be good for the original company also.. (in this case very good)Just has you also say @DocTrucker
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Does the Duet license forbids commercial cloning? If not, they must have their reasoning for allowing it.
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@zapta said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
Does the Duet license forbids commercial cloning? If not, they must have their reasoning for allowing it.
No. See: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/T3P3/Duet/master/LICENSE
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@grizewald said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
No. See: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/T3P3/Duet/master/LICENSE
Some developers choose to allow commercial competition (e.g. Arduino, Duet), some not, and some even include license hardware in their product (e.g. Teensy). Each and their goals and considerations. Would be interesting to hear Duet's explanation why they chose to allow.
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@zapta If you watch Tom Sanladerer's video from today, he asked exactly that question.
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@DocTrucker said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:
However in terms of the effect of clones on the original company what is the difference between me buying second hand rather than new compared to me buying a clone? For instance in the cold light of day I would have to say the logical conclusion is likely to be I am causing just as much damage to Duet3D buying second hand and asking questions on here as I would be if I had bought a clone.
Absolutely NOT damaging to purchase second hand. In fact, it HELPS the original company establish value, and brand equity. It helps quite a bit. It's called a "Healthy secondary market". Knowing that a given product can be re-sold for more than a pittance, that knowledge helps original purchasers make the decision to buy that product up front.
Contrast that to a clone. No benefit to the original, and a high potential to damage brand equity, because of poor clone quality.
I could expand on both statements above quite a bit... I think people get the point, so I'll keep it short.
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@Danal appreciate the different view point. I was considering it from a purely revenue point of view.
Edit: That makes sense to me, and I can see why second hand is better than clone for companies like Duet3D that have embraced Open Source. With terms like 'planned obsolescence' kicking around it is not always embraced by all industries, some of which purely see coin as king and look little further in directing their business. The latter likely to be a failing of shareholders who only care for their dividend.
