Bondtech (or similar) extruders
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i have titan aeros and agree that they leave something to be desired in the power department, i had debated between replacing them with bondtech bmg’s or another interesting extruder, the flexion extruder.
It has an interesting feature, in that it automatically clears the hobbled bolt, would solve your problem.
I ended up going with the bondtech, because i have my doubts that the heartbreak on the flexion is up to the task of sinking enough heat away. Documentation on it is also limited and there isn’t a support forum.... that and i know bondtech makes great stuff (i’ve got a bondtech qr that worked great on my delta).
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I exclusively use the BMG extruders and own a total of 4 of them across 3 printers. They seem to be the only one that can grip a wide variety of materials and don't require any re-tuning for feed rates or anything, even when using ninjaflex and switching right to PC-CF. Heck it even handled ninjaflex in a bowden setup quite well.
One note is that while they say to set your step/mm to 415, when you calibrate I find 415 to be a good average but find +/- 10mm / step is the tolerance. Once set though you never really have to adjust it.
I will be curious to see how you make out with the mixing nozzle as I may be upgrading to that soon as I really like the idea of a multi-color print.
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@bpislife said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
I exclusively use the BMG extruders and own a total of 4 of them across 3 printers. They seem to be the only one that can grip a wide variety of materials and don't require any re-tuning for feed rates or anything, even when using ninjaflex and switching right to PC-CF. Heck it even handled ninjaflex in a bowden setup quite well.
One note is that while they say to set your step/mm to 415, when you calibrate I find 415 to be a good average but find +/- 10mm / step is the tolerance. Once set though you never really have to adjust it.
I will be curious to see how you make out with the mixing nozzle as I may be upgrading to that soon as I really like the idea of a multi-color print.
Thanks for that. Re the mixing hot end - I've been using them for years. Loads of stuff on my blog https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/blog/
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@qdeathstar said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
i have titan aeros and agree that they leave something to be desired in the power department, i had debated between replacing them with bondtech bmg’s or another interesting extruder, the flexion extruder.
It has an interesting feature, in that it automatically clears the hobbled bolt, would solve your problem.
I ended up going with the bondtech, because i have my doubts that the heartbreak on the flexion is up to the task of sinking enough heat away. Documentation on it is also limited and there isn’t a support forum.... that and i know bondtech makes great stuff (i’ve got a bondtech qr that worked great on my delta).
Thanks. Ref the flexion, TBH I'm looking fr something that doesn't grind the filament away in the first place - clearing it from the hobbed bolt is the lease of my problems.
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i think any time you use a hobbed bolt that bites into filament you are going to get small chips that accumulate on the hob bolts teeth, reducing its ability to bite the plastic till it can’t provide enough grip to push the filament and simply grinds on it. Keeping the hobbed bolt clean should help make sure you can get a consistent byte.
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@qdeathstar said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
i think any time you use a hotbed bolt that bites into filament you are going to get small chips that accumulate on the hobbs bolt, reducing its ability to bite the plastic till it can’t provide enough grip to push the filament and simply grinds on it. Keeping the hobbee bolt clean should help make sure you can get a consistent byte.
Fair comment. I guess the ideal extruder would have 2 (or more) hobbed bolts plus a mechanism to keep them clean. AFAIK no such extruder exists so I'm inclined towards the Bondtech with 2 hobbed bolts over the flexion with a single hobbed bolt and cleaning mechanism. For "normal" use, that is to say without retracting and un-retracting the same piece of filament, I don't really get any build up on the hobbed bolt though.
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It never really made a splash but the belt-friction extruder (Vaeder or something like that) of some while back seemed to be a novel solution for pushing filament without having to bite into it with sharp teeth.
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@djdemond said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
It never really made a splash but the belt-friction extruder (Vaeder or something like that) of some while back seemed to be a novel solution for pushing filament without having to bite into it with sharp teeth.
Yeah, I wondered about those. As you say, it never made a splash and I can't find much info. Bit concerned about how much pushing power they might have compared to a hobbed bolt.
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Well the one I saw some time ago gripped the filament between about 5 cm of belt, so I would expect it to be fairly tight. The big plus would be you could drive it as hard as you wanted, even if it slips, you won't grind it to nothing.
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Update on this. Long story short but Martin Bondéus from Bondtech kindly sent me a BMG unit for evaluation. I've just got around to doing the tests and writing up my findings. Results and associated video are here https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2018/05/11/bondtech-bmg-vs-e3d-titan-extreme-retraction-torture-test/.
It might surprise you ...........it did me!
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It looks like you stumbled onto one of the Titan's "bearingate" problems. E3D had a variety of problems involving a bearing supplier that switched to a grease that damages polycarbonate, then switched to a grease that went bad. I'll let them explain it since I will probably get it wrong.
https://e3d-online.com/blog/2018/01/22/bearinggate/
https://e3d-online.com/blog/2018/02/05/bringing-an-end-to-bearinggate-improving-titan-and-titan-aero/I have a Titan but much prefer the BMG. I can sympathize on not wanting to buy 5 BMG kits.
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@jrdm Thanks and yes, I'm well aware of the Titan bearing problems - just never noticed it on my own extruders until now.
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The Titan is terrible.... I think a chinesium extruder would probably beat it.
With a .8mm nozzle, I can’t print faster than 30mm/s pla @ 210c.
I got the bmg sitting in a box but I need to make a mount for it first and I’m debating between dyzend and an v6 for the hot end... want to watercool the cold end and the dyzend is ready to in that regard.... but I’ve heard it clogs easily...
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@deckingman said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
"My overall impression is that fitting the Bondtech BMG is a doddle but the E3D Titan is a bit fiddly."
Being that I'm not British (just a member of the commonwealth), I had to guess at the meaning of this one.
Thanks for the good read, very interesting results.Purely speculation, but I also wonder if the compression effect of the dual hobbed bolt from the Bondtech stiffens and strengthens the filament.
The bearing problems on the Titan are widespread and substantial. I had nothing but problems with my Titan Aero that never made any sense. First the hobbed gear was out of alignment causing the filament path to be off the center of the hob which lead to excessive stripping of the filament. E3D recommended I smack it with a hammer to get it back in alignment! I refused and they sent me a replacement free of charge which also had the same issue. I smacked it with a hammer and it improved that problem, but then the bearing gate issues started to become more apparent. I've since replaced both bearings with replacements sent from E3D and things seem to be back in order. For comparison, another printer was using a TriangleLabs Titan V6 clone that functioned perfectly from day one and has put twice the amount of plastic through it and hasn't shown a slight bit of wear.
The whole experience was a little disheartening. I really like E3D and their products and the work they do, but I feel the Aero was a fairly botched product. Kudos to them for being forthcoming with the problems and sticking by their customers with support and fixes, but the whole thing was a bit of a doddle. Did I use that right?
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@phaedrux said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
@deckingman said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
"My overall impression is that fitting the Bondtech BMG is a doddle but the E3D Titan is a bit fiddly."
Being that I'm not British (just a member of the commonwealth), I had to guess at the meaning of this one.
but the whole thing was a bit of a doddle. Did I use that right?
Not quite. Sorry about the confusing use of language. "A doddle" means easy, simple or straightforward. So fitting the BMG was a doddle but E3Ds Aero is more of a hotchpotch and certainly not a doddle
At least I didn't use Cockney rhyming slang - then you would have been really screwed in trying to understand the meaning.
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@qdeathstar said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
The Titan is terrible.... I think a chinesium extruder would probably beat it.
With a .8mm nozzle, I can’t print faster than 30mm/s pla @ 210c.
I got the bmg sitting in a box but I need to make a mount for it first and I’m debating between dyzend and an v6 for the hot end... want to watercool the cold end and the dyzend is ready to in that regard.... but I’ve heard it clogs easily...
Hmmmm. Well the area of a 0.4mm nozzle is about 0.126 mm^2. The area of a 0.8mm nozzle is about 0.5 mm^2. That's roughly 4 times bigger. So 30 mm/sec with a 0.8 mm nozzle is the equivalent melt rate of 120 mm/sec with a 0.4mm nozzle. So, although I'm no longer a fan of the Titan, in this case I'd suggest that it isn't the extruder that is at fault and it's simply that you've reached the melt rate of the hot end. In that respect, a Volcano would work better. Or you could feed multiple filaments into multiple melt chambers as I do, but then you need multiple extruders which ain't cheap
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ll see what mr bmg says about that...
With the bmg/v6 combo I’ll be able to do the volcano... I’m not sure if it is comparable with the Titan aero or not.
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I am using a Bondtech QR, and it is amazing. I have never jammed or chewed up the filament like I used to on my titan. This was supposed to be a temp solution while I am waiting for a zesty. Now I am not sure if I will go back. If you are gonna Bowden, use a Bondtech QR.
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@deckingman said in Bondtech (or similar) extruders:
Update on this.
Thanks for the update and the detailed blog post and video. I've had a few retraction related issues on my Kossel Mini with Titan extruder, and I've also had to disassemble it twice to get things to line up properly, and to deal with the bad clicking issues. This in under 200 hours of use. I assumed 90% of those issues were my fault, but after reading this thread, now I'm not so sure. I might try the Bondtech BMG on my next build -- although replacing the Titan on this Kossel Mini might also make sense.
John
