Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?
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@joaquin_suave said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
4x 200mm silicone heaters
Can you supply technical data: what voltage are the heaters rated for, which voltage do you want to supply?
Do I wire the heaters & thermistors in parallel or in series?
Talking of the heaters, that depends on their voltages. With the thermistors, it's a different story. In theory, it is possible to wire them in parallel (for this, you would have to adjust the T value of the corresponding
M308command to - roughly - 25k). However, this will impose a security risk, as the readings are averaged: a single heater going wild might not be recognised. The least thing you should do ist to provide a fifth thermistor to monitor (and to limit) the temperature of your build plate. -
Each of the pads are 24V 300W
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@joaquin_suave said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
24V 300W
Ouch, what do you want to cook? 4*300 = 1200 W. Most hotplates on my stove have less! Want some tasty recipes?
To the facts: Wired in serial you arrive at 24*4 = 96 V - not enough for mains power, regardless where you live. The only chance is to use them in parallel, which requires a power supply with 24 V, 1200 W - in theory. As the pads initially are cold, the starting current is considerably higher, so you better should aim at something like 2000 W. I don't know where to buy such a beast for a reasonable price.
In my eyes, the configuration is ill-fated. Hopefully, you can return the heaters and buy a single 600 - 800 W mains heater instead. It's the only meaningful solution I can imagine. One final note: next time, you better should ask before you buy …
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If you really only need a total of 300W (depends on how high you want the bed temperature to go...), you could wire two strings of heaters, each string of two in series, with the strings in parallel. This would give you a single 300W heater.
Or, you could get a somewhat higher voltage power supply (up to 48V), and use this configuration up to full power. Previous commenters have mentioned that this is an awful lot of bed power, so you might want to get a supply of some intermediate voltage, or see if a 48V power supply has a sufficiently adjustable output, to match your real requirements.
Note that using it at full power in 48 volts, and letting the switching handle the power reduction, is possible, but it's generally better to pre-regulate the peak power in advance so your switching circuit isn't too far below 100% output. It regulates better that way. -
@mendenmh said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
you could wire two strings of heaters, each string of two in series, with the strings in parallel. This would give you a single 300W heater
Do you use the Windows calculator? I better scratch my head, because that tells me twice as much for the seriell-parallel config you propose
Aside from the math, there is a high risk of uneven temperature distribution, not to talk of the 4 thermistors to herd. Depending on the temperature characteristics, it might even be possible that, at half the voltage, most of the heat is dissipated by the power supply, not by the heaters.
Admitted: I exaggerate, but after all, I think @Joaquin_Suave will be unhappy (or unsafe, or both) if he sticks with these heaters.
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@infiniteloop said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
@mendenmh said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
you could wire two strings of heaters, each string of two in series, with the strings in parallel. This would give you a single 300W heater
Do you use the Windows calculator? I better scratch my head, because that tells me twice as much for the seriell-parallel config you propose
24V 300W, so they are about 2 ohm each.
So 2 in series will be 4 ohm, and each such string will dissipate 150W (24 x 24 / 4) or (2 x 12 x 12 / 2).
So two such strings will be 300W.
I'm not sure what's astonishing at that.However, 300W seems a bit too low to me for a 400 square print bed. I might go for 1200W in preference to 300W, but it is a lot of current. For the OP, in that case you'd connect the four heaters in parallel, and make sure your power supply wiring and switching can handle the current (50A!) You could connect in parallel and drive at a different voltage to get the power that you need, but really for a bed this powerful I think a mains voltage heater and SSR is the way to go.
https://docs.duet3d.com/en/User_manual/Connecting_hardware/Temperature_connecting_thermistors_PT1000 has a discussion about the ways to connect multiple thermistors to one input - it's under the heading 'Using multiple temperature sensors for a single heater'. Take not of what it says about behaviour when something fails.
You are potentially prone to irregular heating - if the tolerance on your heaters is not precise and one heats more than the others, you'll get irregular heating. In principle it's no worse than the fact that a heater manufacturer might not produce an exactly uniform distribution of heat in one mat, but I think there's potential for things to be difficult with the proposed arrangement.
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@achrn Obviously, I was driven by Murphy’s- instead of Ohm’s law. Thanks for putting this right. However, I can’t overemphasize my fundamental concerns: too much power, no reasonable control (due to the 4 thermistors). Not to mention the inevitable losses in the power supply and a cabling with AWG 7 or better …
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I am interested in this as well. I've got a printer with a 440x413 bed and a single large heatpad. It does not heat evenly at all. Theres a 20 degree difference between the middle of the plate and edges as well as significant bowing of the bed in the middle where the heat is more concentrated.
The consensus seems to be that using four pads is overall a bad idea.
In that case what is a good idea? What would be the best way to evenly head such a large bed?
With Prusa's new XL printer, he uses a modular approach with numberous tiny heatbeds. Would something like this be possible and if so, how? Using, for instance, a Duet 2 Wifi and a 24V, 25 Amp, 600W power supply?
Modified Multoo MT1.5, Modified Creality CR6SE, Modified Monoprice Mini Delta, Modified Wanhao Di3, Phrozen Shuffle
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For what it's worth, here is my thought on this ...
While 1200W is a bit over the top, it is not unrealistic.
Unless I am mis-understanding, OP wanted a simple approach which would be a single thermistor (and a thermal fuse !!!!). While one could use any and all thermistors built into the heat pads, I would use a single thermistor attached at the center of the bed.
Running 1200W on 24V is IMHO a mistake. As mentioned by others, the appropriate tool here is a mains powered heater.
As far as even heat distribution is concerned, increasing the mass (thickness) of the aluminum bed will go a long way of evening things out. Insulation on the underside of the heat pad/ build plate assembly also helps to some degree. While totally even heat is nice, I do not think it is the end of the world if things are not totally even. In fact you might introduce more uneven-ness depending on what material you put on top of the build plate to actually print on. I print on glass and would not be surprised at all at a 20C temperature difference at various points on the build plate.
The build plate is heated to facilitate adhesion of the plastic being laid down on the build plate. Material such as PLA can stick easily, other materials are a bit more finicky but you can use adhesion promoters and/or different material on top of the build plate. In other words, IMHO it isn't a big deal if you have 10 or even 20C difference in temperature in different areas of the build plate. Assuming you actually require the first layer to go all the way to the edge of the build plate (in my case this is very rare indeed), most material can use a range of build plate temperatures and a compromise that gives adequate temperatures everywhere is usually possible.
400 mm square heat pads are readily available for 120 or 240V.
Think thermal fuse !!!! (can't stress this too much) -
@nvigr8 said in Wiring multiable bed heaters as a single unit?:
significant bowing of the bed in the middle where the heat is more concentrated.
Consensus is that using tooling plate aluminum should reduce the issue of warping. If you use standard rolled 6061 you have all kinds of internal stresses. Tool plate aluminum is cast and relatively stress free. The material used also does not expand/contrtact as much as normal 6061.
WIth that size bed, I would use 3/8" thick material and 1/2" would not be unreasonable either. -
@jens55 I totally agree that a precision milled aluminum plate of that thickness would be a much better choice than the cheap, thin sheet that comes stock. However, you are also talking about piece of metal that costs several hundred dollars to procure unfortunately. Personally I was hoping to explore a less expensive alternative.
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@nvigr8, try https://www.midweststeelsupply.com/store/index.php
The plate, as long as it is rectangular, will probably be between $50 and $75 USD ... I am assuming you are i the US. I had a couple plates shipped to Canada and it was not bad at all. I am pretty sure that was the supplier I used but if I am leading you astray then I am sure somebody will point you in the right direction.
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17.7 in *17.7 in by 1/2" thick tooling plate is just shy of $83
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@jens55 Wow! That is so much cheaper than anything else I've found! Thanks for the info! I'm gonna try that route first. Now to peel that giant heat mat off...
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@nvigr8 Question: If I'm going to switch to a 3/8" 15.75x16.25 aluminum plate will I need to upgrade the Y stepper motor? Right now I'm using a single Nema 17 to drive the Y axis. Will that be powerful enough? Or should I go to two Nema 17's or a single larger stepper? Thanks.
