Bimodal layer shift

[NitroFreak]

@mrehorstdmd said in Bimodal layer shift:

@JamesM Thanks, but I'd still like to hear what @spudaddict has to say. Self built printers are seldom identical, even if they start from the same set of plans/BOM. People make part substitutions and design changes all the time. Print quality varying with bed position is exactly the sort of problem you would expect from belts being improperly laid out, evidence of which is varying belt tension as the extruder carriage moves around.

Thats a good point, thats true.
However belt tension would have a very sloppy effect on print quality, but just check the first red tower, the sections that are shifted within themselves are very properly aligned

[spudaddict]

@mrehorstdmd As James M said, it is a CoreXY. I am not sure how I would measure tension variation on a moving belt - open to suggestions. IF the x and y rails are orthogonal there should be no tension variation. The strange thing is that in between the red tube print and the drag chain print, the printer made a perfect moai (Thingiverse: 144668). Its at work so I cant pull up a photo. Also, the "good" zones seem to move around the bed.

[spudaddict]

@Danal The belt is new, but I will do as you suggest. There are 2 belts on a CoreXY so I can easily check between them when I tear it down this weekend. I also have a new set of belts I may try as well.

[spudaddict]

@DigiD The belts are new, but I will definitely look them over. I also have a new set of belts I may try this weekend as well.

[spudaddict]

@NitroFreak I absolutely agree, which is why I ruled out most layer shifting "fixes." The pattern varies by location on the bed, is at random heights, but has two endpoints and then reverses back to the first layer origin. Very strange but specific.

[spudaddict]

@JamesM I will run a print tonight and try the M122 command. I too think it is mechanical, but I cant wrap my head around what it could be.

[spudaddict]

@mrehorstdmd See my reply to you above. A fellow 3D enthusiast from work built the same printer in tandem as I built mine. His BLV cube does not have this issue either. I'm not sure how to measure belt tension - maybe put a spring on the end and measure an elongation?

[spudaddict]

@NitroFreak Thats what is killing me! How is it so perfectly sloppy?

[spudaddict]

@spudaddict Here is a photo of the best and the worst pieces from the drag chain print. They were in diagonally opposite corners... which seems to indicate a mechanical issue due to the CoreXY configuration.

These were printed at the same time just 150mms or so apart.

[spudaddict]

@spudaddict Config.g

; Configuration file for Duet WiFi (firmware version 2.03)
; executed by the firmware on start-up
;
; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool v2.0.4 on Wed Oct 02 2019 19:29:38 GMT-0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)

; General preferences
G90 ; send absolute coordinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M550 P"Wyrm Forge" ; set printer name

M667 S1 ; select CoreXY mode

; Network
M552 S1 ; enable network
M586 P0 S1 ; enable HTTP
M586 P1 S0 ; disable FTP
M586 P2 S0 ; disable Telnet

; Drives
M569 P0 S0 ; physical drive 0 goes 0=backwards, 1=forwards
M569 P1 S0 ; physical drive 1 goes
M569 P2 S1 ; physical drive 2 goes
M569 P3 S1 ; physical drive 3 goes
M584 X0 Y1 Z2 E3 ; set drive mapping
M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1 ; configure microstepping with interpolation
M92 X79 Y158.88 Z809.21 E108.90 ; set steps per mm X is 158.88 with 0.9 stepper replaced
M566 X900.00 Y900.00 Z12.00 E120.00 ; set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X18000.00 Y18000.00 Z180.00 E1200.00 ; set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X3000.00 Y3000.00 Z100.00 E9000.00 ; set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X1700 Y1700 Z800 E1400 I30 ; set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
M84 S30 ; Set idle timeout

; Axis Limits
M208 X-28.0 Y-6.0 Z0 S1 ; set axis minima
M208 X320 Y320 Z460 S0 ; set axis maxima

; Endstops
M574 X1 Y1 S1 ; set active high and disabled endstops

; Z-Probe
M574 Z1 S2 ; set endstops controlled by probe
M307 H3 A-1 C-1 D-1 ; disable heater on PWM channel for BLTouch
M558 P9 H4 F120 T9000 ; set Z probe type to bltouch and the dive height + speeds
G31 P500 X8.1 Y-61.1 Z1.36 ; set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
M557 X30:250 Y30:250 P7
;M557 X10:320 Y10:360 P7 ; define mesh grid

; Heaters
M305 P0 T100000 B4138 R4700 ; set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 0
M143 H0 S140 ; set temperature limit for heater 0 to 140C
M305 P1 T100000 B4138 R4700 ; set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 1
M143 H1 S280 ; set temperature limit for heater 1 to 280C
M307 H1 A987.5 C204.5 D8.4 S0.85 V24.1 B0 ; set A=gain, C=heat time, D=dead time, S=power %, V=voltage, B0=bang bang

; Fans
M106 P0 S0 I0 F500 H-1 ; set fan 0 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off
M106 P1 S1 I0 F500 H1 T45 ; set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned on

; Tools
M563 P0 S"Right" D0 H1 F0 ; define tool 0
G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 ; set tool 0 axis offsets
G10 P0 R0 S0 ; set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C

; Custom settings are not defined

; Miscellaneous
M911 S10 R11 P"M913 X0 Y0 G91 M83 G1 Z3 E-5 F1000" ; set voltage thresholds and actions to run on power loss

[mrehorstdmd]

Belt tension doesn't have to be checked while it's moving. Simply move the extruder carriage around manually- you'll feel any variations in tension.

How about some photos or your BLV cube?

Are you, by any chance, using steel core belts?

[spudaddict]

@mrehorstdmd I tried steel belts on a modified Anet A8, they were terrible. Currently have fiberglass backed belts on it and have a coupe nylon corded rubber ones to try out.

I reprinted my tubes design. The offsets are much smaller. I was able to force the front right tube to offset by pressing and pulling the print head. Still troubleshooting...

My BLV is a bit hacked up since I have been swapping out motors, moving wires, inspecting belts and cannibalizing my A8 bed parts... but here ya go.

[mrehorstdmd]

@spudaddict That first photo at the top of this thread looks like something is shifting by a mm or two. There has to be something loose. Can you detect any play at all in the bearing blocks on the linear guides? Are the pulley axles solidly mounted? Grab the heater block on the hot-end and try to wiggle it.

Try pushing on the bed and see if you can make it wiggle.

The frame has an open front in that design for some reason. Does it flex when you push the two top corners toward each other?

[JamesM]

Did my eyes deceive me or do you have a 1.8deg stepper on X and a 0.9deg stepper on Y looking at your config.g and the steps/mm??? I'm guessing by the heatsinks on the stepper drivers that it is a clone duet board since the standard duets don't come with them. If that's the case I would put some active cooling on that board since the clones generally have only 1/2 the amount of copper in the pcb compared to the real duet boards.

[spudaddict]

@mrehorstdmd Yes, this last round seems to have much less shift.

I can detect some rotating on the "Y" bridge, but takes some force. (pushing forward on the left end, pulling on the right at the same time - and visa versa) I tried doing that during a print with long lines (a large box) and it didn't seem to have an effect. The open front has bothered me since before I began the build. They will flex a little if the Y bridge is near the back, less flex when it is near the front.

I DO get some wiggling on the nozzle in the Y direction. Not sure how that can create a diagonal offset, but I plan on reprinting the head assembly today/tomorrow with stiffer supports. The X and Y MGN carriages seem solid.

Thank you for your continued suggestions. I will see what reducing the print head wiggle brings.

[spudaddict]

@JamesM lol... yes. Sharp eyes.

My only spare 2A stepper motor is for the 2nd filament driver(1.8deg). I swapped it into both the X and Y positions to see if there was a motor issue and need to pull it back out. I tried the M121 command near the end of the gray tube print and there were zero errors and zero hiccups - so likely a mechanical issue.

When the back cover is on, the 4x120 fans move a lot of air across the Duet board, but I have had the cover off since I started troubleshooting. I will put a fan on and under it next.

Thank you for your help and suggestions.

[Danal]

@mrehorstdmd said in Bimodal layer shift:

The frame has an open front in that design for some reason. Does it flex when you push the two top corners toward each other?

Good catch. That looks REALLY suspicious. Given the nature of the layer shift, specifically that a few layers are "this way" and a few more "that way", it would seem that something is flexing or stretching, ONLY when some part of the printer is at "one end" vs the other, AND that the slicer is doing a few layers with all "strokes" moving in one direction... and then a few more layers the opposite way.

And... all of that would fit VERY well with that open front moving, when the crossbar is not there to brace it.

Perhaps try bolting a temporary brace across that opening, and reprint?

[spudaddict]

@Danal Morning Danal. I am not ruling anything out at this point, but a couple considerations:

There are two cross bars near the bottom (not ideal) that are rigid - so any flexing would require the vertical 2040 extrusions to actually bend against the 40mm width. Im not sure there is anything that happens during normal operation of the printer that can generate that much force.

Also, the Y bridge works to hold the width steady since it cannot get longer/shorter as it travels front to back... as long as the MGN rail alignment is correct.

I am going to put a temp brace on as you suggested, but I suspect what I will get is confirmation that my MGN alignment is either right or wrong. If it is wrong and the top is now absolutely rigid - the Y bridge should bind up. Badly.

[Danal]

@spudaddict said in Bimodal layer shift:

@Danal Morning Danal. I am not ruling anything out at this point, but a couple considerations:

There are two cross bars near the bottom (not ideal) that are rigid - so any flexing would require the vertical 2040 extrusions to actually bend against the 40mm width. Im not sure there is anything that happens during normal operation of the printer that can generate that much force.

Also, the Y bridge works to hold the width steady since it cannot get longer/shorter as it travels front to back... as long as the MGN rail alignment is correct.

I am going to put a temp brace on as you suggested, but I suspect what I will get is confirmation that my MGN alignment is either right or wrong. If it is wrong and the top is now absolutely rigid - the Y bridge should bind up. Badly.

Yeah, it is a long shot...

But two things seem very likely, given the pattern of the offset:

1. The gcode is doing something in "this direction" for a few layers, and then "that direction" and keeps swapping. This would make absolutely no difference on a mechanically correct printer.

2. Something in the printer is allowing movement that gets forced "this way" when the code is printing in "this direction" and vice versa... AND it is allowing that in one corner and not the other. Corner? Edge?

It is item 2 that makes me look at things like a belt with a stretched spot near-ish one end of the belt, or the frame being more rigid "over here" vs "over there", or a rail that is loose at one end, or anything that can be different. I'd look at anything asymmetric first, and then look for loose things at one end. Like maybe a linear rail that's bolted to the frame very firmly at one end, and has somehow come loose at the other. GIven that it looks like a full mm or more of shift, probably not a subtle wear item, probably something that is very loose.

I just discovered last night that I can twist the carriage on my Jubilee tool changer. The "slider" on the rail is fine. The bolts between the carriage and that slider must be loose. Need to take some things apart find out. Explains some things I've been seeing.

So heave on everything. Twist, push, etc. I'm sure you already have... and I'm sure you've done it while the carriage is positioned near the corner that shows the worst symptoms. Power it off and play with things in that corner. Push hard.

I will say you've got a bizarre one going here... fun challenge for all those of us throwing ideas at you remotely. Not as fun for you!!

[JamesM]

Bracing the front is something I did to my BLV printer from the start. The open front is nice but I wanted it rigid. It is an old picture of mine since I have since done a RailcoreII bed with 3 leadscrews and steppers.