Testing Resolution / accuracy , Your results wanted! Z Probe Results

DjDemonD

Kossel XL Duetwifi, tooling plate, 0.9 degree motors, 16t pulleys, 1/16 stepping with interpolation
Bed Temp 75, hot end temp 130 (to ensure no filament at the nozzle affects results)
Using Lykle design 64mm magnetic effector with 27mm "hole drilled" piezo disc, 3 rods, 3 screws support.

I could not run this at full speed, piezo requires the probing itself to happen very smoothly so I run

;slow down movement to improve accuracy of probing, and lower motor current in case of incident
M906 X500 Y500 Z500 E800 I60		; Set low motor currents (mA) and increase idle current to 60%
M201 X250 Y250 Z250 E1000		; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
M203 X15000 Y15000 Z15000 E3600		; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
M566 X100 Y100 Z100 E1200		; Maximum instant speed changes mm/minute

Before probing and did the 4 runs at 60 % speed. Piezo is accurate not fast, this is due to mechanical noise and vibration which will cause false triggers if its too great.

Okay so 100 to -100 test run 1:
Bed probe heights: 0.002 0.002 0.002 0.002 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.008 0.002 0.002 -0.003 -0.008 -0.008 -0.003 -0.008 -0.013 -0.003 -0.008 -0.008 -0.008 -0.008 -0.008 -0.008 -0.013, mean -0.004, deviation from mean 0.005
Run 2:
Bed probe heights: -0.013 -0.008 -0.013 -0.013 -0.013 -0.013 -0.013 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.013 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.013 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.013 -0.013 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018, mean -0.016, deviation from mean 0.004

Single point probe run 1:
Bed probe heights: -0.018 -0.013 -0.018 -0.013 -0.018 -0.013 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.013 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018, mean -0.018, deviation from mean 0.002
Run 2:
Bed probe heights: -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.023 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.018 -0.023, mean -0.019, deviation from mean 0.002

Please be careful with the 100 to -100 test if you are not using a delta!! I am, but just saying

Since the values above appear to be microsteps limited I also tried a run at 1/256 of the single probe test:
Bed probe heights: -0.034 -0.026 -0.021 -0.024 -0.022 -0.020 -0.023 -0.022 -0.024 -0.022 -0.020 -0.021 -0.018 -0.020 -0.021 -0.016 -0.019 -0.018 -0.016 -0.017 -0.020 -0.016 -0.017 -0.020 -0.018 -0.018 -0.020 -0.017 -0.016 -0.018 -0.016 -0.017 -0.018 -0.015 -0.016 -0.014, mean -0.019, deviation from mean 0.004

Interestingly probably a more accurate test I wonder if using 1/16th and interpolating is essentially smoothing the result but please add them I think piezo has proved its worth.

DjDemonD

I will try to find the time to do an electrical contact test on this printer for a baseline. Plus looking at the data for microswitches, of which some did very well, the issue here is you are deploying them by servo, in the real world? So how do they do on repeatability from one run to the next? This is the reason I love piezo, its permanently mounted. If you attach a microswitch to probe then remove it afterwards, how repeatable is that between runs?

Maybe add a third test probe, home, probe, home etc…

Russ Gries

@DjDemonD:

Kossel XL Duetwifi, tooling plate, 0.9 degree motors, 16t pulleys, 1/16 stepping with interpolation
Bed Temp 75, hot end temp 130 (to ensure no filament at the nozzle affects results)
Using Lykle design 64mm magnetic effector with 27mm "hole drilled" piezo disc, 3 rods, 3 screws support.

I think piezo has proved its worth.

Yeah Nice !

Here is the results:

Higher rezhttp://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Projects/3D%20printer/micro%20switch%20Z%20probe%20Data/Bed%20Probes%20accuracy%20others%20added.jpg

very nice!

If you run the contact contact, run it at the same slow speed, then again at the 5mm/s speed.

I'm going to run the contact contact slower on mine to see what it looks like.

Thanks!!!!! keep em coming guys and gals! i would love to have a database of this stuff!!

~Russ

DuetUser

To be honest I don't calibrate too often, I print on three printers now and haven't recalibrated them for almost a week.
Our print surfaces are quick swappable so after finishing a print I swap a glass bed and start printing next part, without any recalibration. Of course these beds are more or less distorted, thus it's good to use raft.

What I was thinking is to make an initial precise calibration with aluminium bed just to receive good part precision, then forget about calibrating anything, just swap the bed to glass, production one and refine nozzle offset with babystepping if required.
I only have to check if it really does improve anything to have deviation less than say 0.03.

Russ Gries

@DjDemonD:

I will try to find the time to do an electrical contact test on this printer for a baseline. Plus looking at the data for microswitches, of which some did very well, the issue here is you are deploying them by servo, in the real world? So how do they do on repeatability from one run to the next? This is the reason I love piezo, its permanently mounted. If you attach a microswitch to probe then remove it afterwards, how repeatable is that between runs?

Maybe add a third test probe, home, probe, home etc…

yeah i wanted to do a home probe home probe test but that is i think for another day… because then your adding the tolerance of your homing switches. its more than i wanted to test at first.

If we all set up a contact contact and got a 0 deviation... we could then test the accuracy of our Homing... ( however i cant even get a 0 deviation even when running very slow)

if anyone has a servo controlled micro switch probe do please test. i think that we will find a lot of error in that.
for me tho i want a direct switch with the hot end. like your piezo system.

there are already deigns out there like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e119OXzkk7s
but, like i said with a micro switch you have to back it off x amount and that means that you need a part that moves a lot more than lets say your piezo system. this means there is more chance for error and your nozzle moving around while printing.

there are micro switches that dont need much movement, but nothing like a FSR or the piezo system. where you can basically hard mount everything but know that you are measuring this force…

dose anyone own a seemecnc rig with the accelerator probe??? That i do want data for!!

~Russ

Russ Gries

well, i finally was able to get a 0 deviation with the contact contact.

using theses settings
[c]M558 P1 X0 Y0 Z1 H1 F1 T10000 I1[/c]

But only a few of Manny try's….

most of the time its always .001mm deviation ( max / min of .003mm)

[c]2:39:14 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003, mean -0.001, deviation from mean 0.002
2:22:29 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000, mean -0.000, deviation from mean 0.001
1:58:42 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000, mean -0.001, deviation from mean 0.002
1:54:49 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 -0.003, mean -0.001, deviation from mean 0.001
1:52:50 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000, mean 0.000, deviation from mean 0.001
1:50:54 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000, mean 0.000, deviation from mean 0.000
1:49:18 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000, mean 0.000, deviation from mean 0.001
1:47:39 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000, mean 0.000, deviation from mean 0.000[/c]

so its possible but i still cant hit 0 all the time…

~Russ

Russ Gries

well that's interesting, even at fast speeds its till quite accurate.

M558 P1 X0 Y0 Z1 H10 F500 T10000 I1

```[c]3:27:33 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.006 0.000 -0.006 -0.006 -0.003 -0.006 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.006 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.006 -0.003 -0.006 -0.006 -0.003 -0.003 -0.006 0.000 -0.006 -0.003 -0.003, mean -0.003, deviation from mean 0.002
3:26:33 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003 -0.006 -0.003 -0.003 0.000 -0.003 -0.003 -0.006 -0.003 -0.003 -0.003, mean -0.002, deviation from mean 0.002
3:25:00 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.031 -0.031 -0.034 -0.034 -0.034 -0.034 -0.031 -0.031 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.034 -0.031 -0.037 -0.037 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.037 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.034 -0.034 -0.037 -0.037 -0.037 -0.034 -0.037 -0.037, mean -0.035, deviation from mean 0.002

M558 P1 X0 Y0 Z5 H1 F300 T10000 I1

M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.003 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.003 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000, mean 0.001, deviation from mean 0.001
3:23:35 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: 0.003 0.003 0.003 0.003 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.003 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.003 0.000 0.003, mean 0.001, deviation from mean 0.002

[/c]

~Russ

Russ Gries

and now we are losing it…

M558 P1 X0 Y0 Z1 H10 F1000 T10000 I1

[c]3:30:41 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.009 -0.019 -0.009 -0.015 -0.006 -0.012 -0.012 -0.019 -0.009 -0.015 -0.019 -0.019 -0.015 -0.015 -0.019 -0.009 -0.015 -0.009 -0.012 -0.019 -0.015 -0.015 -0.019 -0.012 -0.015 -0.019 -0.019 -0.015 -0.019 -0.015 -0.019 -0.012 -0.012 -0.015 -0.012 -0.012, mean -0.015, deviation from mean 0.004
3:30:02 PM
M98 P0:/macros/probetesting/Probe Testing Single Point 36 probes P values .gcode
Bed probe heights: -0.006 -0.003 -0.012 -0.006 -0.006 -0.009 -0.012 -0.019 -0.009 -0.009 -0.009 -0.012 -0.009 -0.015 -0.009 -0.012 -0.012 -0.012 -0.012 -0.012 -0.015 -0.009 -0.009 -0.012 -0.015 -0.012 -0.015 -0.009 -0.015 -0.012 -0.019 -0.009 -0.015 -0.009 -0.012 -0.019, mean -0.012, deviation from mean 0.004[/c]

Russ Gries

so for me contact to contact above 500mm/min we start getting out of a nice range.

~Russ

DjDemonD

@Russ:

@DjDemonD:

I will try to find the time to do an electrical contact test on this printer for a baseline. Plus looking at the data for microswitches, of which some did very well, the issue here is you are deploying them by servo, in the real world? So how do they do on repeatability from one run to the next? This is the reason I love piezo, its permanently mounted. If you attach a microswitch to probe then remove it afterwards, how repeatable is that between runs?

Maybe add a third test probe, home, probe, home etc…

yeah i wanted to do a home probe home probe test but that is i think for another day… because then your adding the tolerance of your homing switches. its more than i wanted to test at first.

If we all set up a contact contact and got a 0 deviation... we could then test the accuracy of our Homing... ( however i cant even get a 0 deviation even when running very slow)

if anyone has a servo controlled micro switch probe do please test. i think that we will find a lot of error in that.
for me tho i want a direct switch with the hot end. like your piezo system.

there are already deigns out there like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e119OXzkk7s
but, like i said with a micro switch you have to back it off x amount and that means that you need a part that moves a lot more than lets say your piezo system. this means there is more chance for error and your nozzle moving around while printing.

there are micro switches that dont need much movement, but nothing like a FSR or the piezo system. where you can basically hard mount everything but know that you are measuring this force…

dose anyone own a seemecnc rig with the accelerator probe??? That i do want data for!!

~Russ

It would be nice to have an endstop repeatability test of some sort? Any ideas?

kraegar

@Russ:

@kraegar:

Separating probe accuracy from printer build accuracy is tough to do. On my delta I'm fighting a mechanical issue right now which makes any sort of probe repeatability tests futile, as it quickly falls into the noise of the printer itself (I have a bearing or something that's gone out, makes a grinding noise during some moves, but for the life of me I can't track it down yet)

In addition, if you're probing two points at any distance apart, then you're actually adding your current calibration accuracy into the probe data, since you're really comparing against the currently calculated plane.

This is correct. this is why i wanted only a single point. even when moving around the point is still 0,0

do you have a motor bearing bearing out? take off the tension and wiggle the shaft… or turn it and see if you hear and noises??

even with your error, can you run the tests, just for fun then again after you find the problem. just to see if it even changed anything?

I will not add the data till after you find the problem, but just for fun sounds interesting to see how much it is effecting your setup ?

~Russ

My printer is partially dismantled to find the source of the grinding sound, and to do some work on my piezo probe setup. Once I find the time to work on it again I'll try and run your tests.

DjDemonD

Just been thinking about the endstop test. The issue is reference points isn't it? Since the endstop is the reference point for the axis the only way to test it would be to create a hard limit somewhere, for example with rails, clamping something onto the rail say 5-10cm from the endstop, then moving the carriage/s manually to sit against the hard clamp point, then homing and then move back under power to the hard stop noting the distance travelled. Repeat this process 20-30 times and you have an endstop repeatability measure which is not dependant on the sensor at the other end of the travel (in the case of a delta say). Sure you could do this potentially with endstops at either end of the axis, but I have never had this setup even when I had a pure cartesian machine, and I certainly don't now I have 2 delta's and a corexy.

You could then swap in a different endstop - Idris has a piezo endstop system in the works which I'd love to compare to microswitches and opticals.

Can anyone think of any easier way to do it?

Russ Gries

I think the best thing to do is just test it agents its self.

that's kinda what your doing on the Z probe. ( home > test distance from home > check against the average)

so, for fun you could home the printer, disconnected Z probe, connect the end stop in its place, reverse the motor. and send the same z probe commands. This would tell you how repeatable "going home" is…

you could probably do all this in software configuration with out ever moving a wire around...

just some ideas for you to chew on

~Russ

Russ Gries

@kraegar:

My printer is partially dismantled to find the source of the grinding sound, and to do some work on my piezo probe setup. Once I find the time to work on it again I'll try and run your tests.

cool thanks ! I hope you find your problem!.

~Russ

DjDemonD

Okay sorry I will make a new thread about endstops, this isnt really the right place.

I have a DC42 IR sensor, and would be happy to (maybe this is controversial given my pushing piezo tech) run it through your test gcodes. However I would be willing to suggest having used it extensively before going to piezo, that if the bed is clean and evenly reflective it will perform very well but given a bit of ABS glue/hairspray etc it will perform far less impressively. The issue with all of this testing is its between lab testing and the real world, the lab testing for microswitches and IR sensors shows/will show amazing results but how well do they repeat this performance when printing object after object in the real world that's what I'm interested in, and thats what I am so pleased with the piezo approach, in the real world once they are setup they perform amazingly well and keep on doing so, plus they nozzle based so no offsets to be compensated for, no tilt etc….

Sabagmn

Here are my results with a modified design of DC42's IR probe. Pretty happy with the results. With this design I don't have to worry about my print bed, which it doesn't do well on directly (glass/PEI).

17:12:51
Bed probe heights: 0.012 0.012 0.006 0.008 0.011 0.011 0.010 0.012 0.015 0.010 0.015 0.014 0.013 0.014 0.011 0.013 0.012 0.017 0.017 0.016 0.018 0.019 0.014 0.019 0.019 0.018 0.016 0.018 0.014 0.015 0.015 0.018 0.019 0.015 0.017 0.019, mean 0.014, deviation from mean 0.003
17:16:28
Bed probe heights: 0.015 0.021 0.013 0.018 0.019 0.016 0.017 0.018 0.015 0.013 0.015 0.018 0.015 0.017 0.014 0.021 0.018 0.019 0.015 0.020 0.017 0.016 0.017 0.014 0.019 0.014 0.016 0.016 0.018 0.020 0.015 0.018 0.016 0.018 0.015 0.020, mean 0.017, deviation from mean 0.002

17:30:00
Bed probe heights: 0.011 0.023 0.025 0.015 0.011 0.014 0.014 0.020 0.009 0.012 0.013 0.019 0.019 0.019 0.024 0.016 0.012 0.013 0.017 0.005 0.008 0.020 0.015 0.021 0.012, mean 0.015, deviation from mean 0.005
17:36:01
Bed probe heights: 0.013 0.020 0.012 0.010 0.017 0.024 0.010 0.014 0.012 0.013 0.018 0.012 0.006 0.024 0.019 0.008 0.011 0.012 0.008 0.012 0.013 0.018 0.015 0.012 0.015, mean 0.014, deviation from mean 0.005

This is the setup: http://photos.gerbers.us/FullScreenSlideShow.aspx?gallery=4808337&mt=Photo

Don't mind all the other stuff. Currently testing out different options for the Z probe, lol

Russ Gries

@Sabagmn:

Here are my results with a modified design of DC42's IR probe. Pretty happy with the results. With this design I don't have to worry about my print bed, which it doesn't do well on directly (glass/PEI).

This is the setup: http://photos.gerbers.us/FullScreenSlideShow.aspx?gallery=4808337&mt=Photo

Don't mind all the other stuff. Currently testing out different options for the Z probe, lol

nice work. that basically just like hall-effect but your is better, Due to the way the rod is held in place. mine is a bit sloppy. you like like you have the proper slide guides in there..

your data added to the workbook.

Higher rezhttp://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Projects/3D%20printer/micro%20switch%20Z%20probe%20Data/Bed%20Probes%20accuracy%20others%20added.jpg

what steps are you using? and what Duet board? yours looks like a Cartesian correct?

Thanks for Probing!!!

~Russ

Sabagmn

You're welcome.
I use the Duet WiFi with 16 micro steps and 256 steps interpolation. And yes it's a cartesian.
Also that slide guide is just a repurposed ball bearing. Works well enough though.

DjDemonD

I like that idea that's very similar to Nebbian's deployable delta probe http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1517363 except he just uses an optical endstop so saving himself £25.

Russ Gries

in case you guys did not watch my other video here is what i'm using now. but i have some intresting ideas to play wth with this type of rig…
OLD VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80qzmwDFGVc

PS. waiting for it to go live… http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2260909
~RUSS