Posts made by marnog

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

@marnog said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Hi Frederick,
I have both leadscrews running from 1 stepper - trying to avoid inconsistencies between the leadscrews. The setup is very very similar to an FT-5.
How would you check the Z axis?

Without actually having that print in-hand it's hard to be sure. In some places it looks like it is bulging out on both sides at the same place. Is that correct or just a issue with trying to judge by the photo?

Frederick

I understand what you mean. The model is not perfectly cylindrical, so it's hard to see in the photo. And the model has 4 prongs/pillars/posts/towers and I can't tell if the bulging deviates in the same direction on all 4 upright parts.
But is does look like the bulging is to a side (a bulge with an indentation on the opposite site). Not a squishing, or Michelin Man effect.

@mrehorstdmd said in CoreXY movement calibration:

I would think there would be some spec on tension based on elongation of the belt. If it were something like 1%, over a 300 mm span, a 2mm pitch GT2 belt should have 148.5 teeth (or is the belt made so that when it is ideally tensioned the pitch will be 2 mm???)

I like this thought. This would be interesting to know.

@droftarts said in CoreXY movement calibration:

A quick googling brings up a few options for measuring belt tension, of which this seems to be the best/most relevant, and has options for measuring both by frequency and by deflection: https://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-to-measure-synchronous-toothed-belt-tension/

Using their frequency formula of Static Tension = 4 x Hz pow 2 x L(m) pow 2 (ignoring belt weight and width as they are the same and I don't have numbers for them), I get
T(X) = 4 * 46.25 pow 2 * 0.4 pow 2 = 1369
T(Y) = 4 * 87.31 pow 2 * 0.32 pow 2 = 3122

Or perhaps to put it another way, to match my Y axis I should tighten my X to:
sqr ( 3122 / (4 * 0.4 pow 2) ) = 69.84 Hz = C#/D flat second octave

That sounds about right. Maybe. Or it could all be nonsense! Anyone care to calculate their belt tension? Maybe a new thread...

You should be okay if the span you are 'twanging' is the same length on both belts, though, and then it's a matter of getting them tight enough to stop layer shifting.

Ian

This is interesting. I'm going to try this. The calculation can also be tested with a single tensioned belt, and the different sections of it between pulleys and idlers.
Thanks Ian!

@Danal said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Gates makes a phone app that listens for the oscillation of a plucked belt. Fifty to Sixty HZ seems about right for CoreXY, with the caveat that the belts MUST be set to square the printer, and that could require quite a bit of difference.

50 to 60 Hz is incredibly tight... much tighter than I would have ever set them without the app. Be sure you have actual glass reinforced belts. I've pulled others apart.

Thanks, I'll check it out. Only thing is that I'm not using genuine Gates belts, I bought "GT2x6 mm Kevlar-reinforced timing belt". Not sure if it'll make a difference, but I'll try the Gates app for reference.
Using the app, to what frequency did (or would) you tune your belts?

@droftarts Yeah, discussing belt tension is very much like discussing how long a piece of string is with everybody having their own piece of string.
With your post in mind, what I'll do is just tighten up the belts a bit, and I'll print something similar to the model that I had issues with (just a bit thinner to save some material) and I'll progressively tighten the belts further to see if I get an improvement.
Thank you for your post and your advice! I'll post my results.

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Hi,

The first thing I would check would be the Z axis. It seems to be moving inconsistently.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,
I have both leadscrews running from 1 stepper - trying to avoid inconsistencies between the leadscrews. The setup is very very similar to an FT-5.
How would you check the Z axis?

@droftarts said in CoreXY movement calibration:

@marnog Glad you have made progress!

Looking at that print, it's hard to tell what's happening. In some places the layers look like they are bulging out both left and right, but in others they look like they've moved in XY (bulge on one side, indent on the other). The main thing to look for is bulges that match on both sides (which would be Z problems or extrusion inconsistency), whereas layer shifting would indicate an XY problem (either with nozzle placement or the bed shifting in XY). How tight are your belts (do you get a 'twang' from them) and are they equally tight?

Ian

Ian,
It looks more like layer shifting than an extrusion inconsistency - it looks more like a wobble than Michelin Man effect. I've printed the same part on another printer with the same filament and it looks much better, so I doubt that it would be inconsistent filament diameter either.
My belts are both the same length, and I have a tensioner with the intention (cough) of applying equal tension on both belts.

To be honest, the belts aren't very tight. In the middle of the longest section of belt (490mm) I can pull the belt about 16mm to the side from a resting position (32mm side to side). I get a twang if I use my imagination... In being overly careful not to over tighten the belts, I might have them too loose.

After months...... Genuine Hiwin rails on X and Y (and a lot of tweaking) and my circles are perfectly round. No sign left of this issue. I really want to thank the following guys for their advice and input on this matter:
@Veti
@droftarts
@DaBit
@fcwilt
@mrehorstdmd
@deckingman
@Edgars-Batna
To be honest, I'm not sure if it was the Hiwin rails that did the trick, or if it was the disassembly and very thorough rebuild that solved the problem. But I am not complaining about the Hiwin rails...

Unfortunately, it's not perfect yet. I am getting a Z issue on tall prints.

It is on a print with 4 tall posts, so the nozzle has to move from 1 post to the next.
I have two TR10x2 leadscrews supported by four 12mm chrome-hardened rods with Hiwin linear bearings on which the bed moves, it's pretty solid. I've checked the leadscrews for bends on my granite surface plate, they look straight to me.

Could this just be that the belts are not properly tensioned? Too loose perhaps?

[Also, I've been considering multi material extrusion. Just 2 colours/materials. I would appreciate some opinions on "2 in, 1 out" setups. Or if someone would point me towards a thread with a good discussion on the topic I will really appreciate it!]

@Veti said in CoreXY movement calibration:

for my printer i went with rails from robotdigg.
its not hiwin quality, but a high quality alternatives (compared to the other chinese clones)

I now have the dilemma: If I get affordable (not calling it cheap) rails and my problem persists, my confidence in the rails won't allow me to exclude them as a possible cause of the problem.

@DaBit said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Ah, another Dutchman! Where are you located? I am from Oss.

Not even a proper Dutchman, ex-South African... I am in Geldrop!
I'll have a look at cnczone.nl, there is a lot of info. And bedankt voor JvE in Eindhoven! I'll will definitely check out what he has.

@DaBit I am quite familiar with the price of Hiwin rails, I have one on the X axis to keep everything tight to try to avoid ghosting/ringing. That price puts you back in your chair, but there are few things as sexy as that smooth glide of premium linear rails...
I have been keeping an eye on eBay, but I've either been unlucky or just too impatient. Most I have seen are from Germany (next door to the Netherlands where I am), but not much luck for cheap and what I need. But like I've said, either unlucky, or too impatient.

The silicone had half a day now to do what it does. I'll print a test again today to see if there is a difference.
To change from the Igus slides to bearing linear rails I will have to redesign most if not all of the CoreXY components because of the difference in height of the rails and the mounting points. It might not be a bad idea to go over everything again, perhaps there is room for improvement, or I can fix a problem that I didn't see before. If I still get the same issue after all of that, then I at least eliminated a possible source of the problem.

@fcwilt Yeah, I think so too. In the mean time, until I get the Hiwin rails, I'll mess with the Igus rails some more to see what it does when it does what it does.

@DaBit I appreciate your input! I know that some oils in certain circumstances can cause more harm than good. Because the Igus stuff is not meant to be lubricated is exactly why I wanted to use it, to worry less about dust and particle ingress and maintenance.

These Igus rails are cheap in comparison to decent bearing linear rails. If I kill one, I kill one. They are not too bad to replace. (And I have a spare...)

And to be truthful, I already gave each slide a quick shot of the silicone spray... I repeated a print that has a bunch of holes in and I can't see any improvement. I didn't expect any improvement, but I was hoping. I'm going to leave it for a day, for the lube to either soak in or destroy the slide, and print a test print again tomorrow. I'm still going to test and measure all the possible suspected play/backlash areas that was mentioned and discussed previously, but I am less and less sure that I will be able to solve the problem (and not a short term solution) with what I have.

@DaBit I've got WD40's Specialist Silicone spray (https://www.wd40.com/products/silicone-lubricant/) that I thought of using. I use it on my micrometers, and it claims to be "Safe on metal and non-metal surfaces including rubber, plastic, and vinyl." Otherwise I could try some KY. I might have some lying around the house somewhere...

@DaBit said in CoreXY movement calibration:

The beauty of engineering. All the complex things go well at first try, it is the simple issues that take ages to find and correct. Good luck!

This I know all too well. Thank you very much for your input! I'm continuing to measure and compare and apply mathematics to try to understand this issue. I'm trying to overlook Occam's razor in order to understand the problem and to solve it, and not just try easy solutions hoping that it would work. Once I'm done measuring I'll report my findings.

@Edgars-Batna said in CoreXY movement calibration:

It didn't occur to me at first, but just wanted to add that I also had this issue when originally trying to use igus Drylin LMXUU bearings. What you're seeing is the axes trying to overcome the standstill friction. From what I learned so far, CoreXY is very susceptible to this since play in X and Y carriages allows the axes to momentarily shear instead of moving in the desired direction.

This is exactly what I was thinking, and what I meant by "binding". The standstill friction at the point where the linear guide changes direction, and the elastic response in the belts when the friction is overcome would explain the flat spots followed by a "sharper" change in direction which gives the circles the elliptical appearance. Just for sh!ts and giggles I'm going to apply a small amount of silicone oil to the Igus rails and slides, just to see what it does...

@Veti said in CoreXY movement calibration:

can you scale it down to 50% to see if the deviation stay constant or scale down as well.

And here I have the (embarrassing) results:
Run-out / deviation over 140mm:
A (diagonal): +0.015
B (diagonal): +0.011
X: +0.121
Y: -0.177

Run-out / deviation over 70mm (50% scale):
A (diagonal): -0.273 = (model scale: 49.800% / deviation scale: -1764.655%)
B (diagonal): +0.326 = (model scale: 50.229% / deviation scale: 2840.116%)
X: +0.071 = (model scale: 50.008% / deviation scale: 58.866%)
Y: -0.488 = (model scale: 49.715% / deviation scale: 275.546%)

The same model (just scaled to 50%), the same print settings, and the same filament.

Next I'm clamping a dialgauge to the X axis measuring on the frame, and running @DaBit's GCode to see if I can measure any play/slop/backlash in the X axis that might be as a result of the Y axis linear guides.

(To be honest, at this stage I'm feeling like just throwing money at the problem and replacing the Igus rails with Hiwin rails. Up to now they are the only parts of the printer that I am not completely confident in, and I have no idea what else it could be.)

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

@Veti said in CoreXY movement calibration:

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Do those non-standard rails have any side-to-side play?

they must have otherwise they would not be able to slide as no ball bearings are involved.

Enough to create the apparent backlash that seems to be the source of the problem?

Frederick

They do, by which I mean they must. But not noticeable. And then @Veti said in CoreXY movement calibration:

0.1mm is a movement you will be hard time identifying by inspection.

Do you think that play in the X direction would cause the defect and run-out / deviation in the Y direction? I would like to think that the CoreXY configuration would keep that kind of play in check. I printed my "calibration octagon" at 50% scale. I'll measure it and report back.

@DaBit said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Maybe put this in a gcode file:
.......

@DaBit I'm going to try this, and also in the X direction to see what it does. See if there is as much noticeable play in the X direction.

I am no photographer. Below are 2 of my own prints: 20mm diameter cylinders. Both printed in an anti-clockwise direction. On the left is the cylinder printed in vase mode (spiralized outer contour), and on the right is the cylinder printed in sequential 0.2mm layers. Unfortunately I cannot get a photo that looks like what I see. Hopefully you can see the flat spots and eliptical deformation that I'm referring to.

@Veti said in CoreXY movement calibration:

can you scale it down to 50% to see if the deviation stay constant or scale down as well.

I'll give it a try. I hope that I can get accurate measurements. The smallest deviation is 0.011mm. Differences on that scale would result in large jumps in percentages. I'll try, and report back.

@antlestxp I printed an octagon with a diameter of 140mm. This gives me an object with 140mm in X, Y, A, and B. With the most recent ones that I have printed I got the following run-out / deviation over 140mm:
A (diagonal): +0.015
B (diagonal): +0.011
X: +0.121
Y: -0.177

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

And the position of the flat spots remains the same?

Always at the MAX Y and MIN Y of the circles.

@fcwilt said in CoreXY movement calibration:

Do you get the same flat spots regardless of where on the bed you print the object?

Yup. I printed all over the bed to see if I might have binding in certain sections of the linear rails, but it happens everywhere. It is much more noticeable in smaller circles than bigger ones.