Dual E3D v6 on FlashForge-style printer

briskspirit

Hi all.

While I am waiting for a new insights on my previous topic (https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/6854/upgrading-qidi-x-pro-printer-bunch-of-questions) decided to try and make a new printing head.

What I want to get? :
1 - Better filament grip
2 - Ability to print with flexible filaments
3 - Ability to print past 250 C
4 - Less weight and more torque (maybe?)

So I have decided to model a new printing head with motors/hot ends/carriage, it will be geared 2.75:1 with two Nema 17 1.3Nm/cm slim profile steppers(20mm long, 140g, low resistance and inductance) , Bontech-style filament gears, E3D V6 hotends, LM8SUU bearings(17mm long, should I switch to Ingus?)

Here is my mock up of what I have in my mind right now(clearances is the same so I am not loosing Z height):

Your thoughts? I have no prior experience and just boring right now
What do I need to take into account?

briskspirit

crynool

Looks neat... easy to convert to a vulcano if required etc.

Maybe already including some basic cooling into the carriage?

Btw, thought about this one?

https://www.bondtech.se/en/product/flashforge-pro-2016-kit/

briskspirit

@crynool Yeah, thought, but main 2 ideas was to use smaller Nema 17 (lighter) + gearbox(maybe get less pulsation on slow extrusions). Plus I thought that E3D V6 is better, no? That's why I was asking here because I will be cheaper and less complicated to make the same on Mk8(Mk10?) extruders. Are Micro Swiss heatbreaks + aluminum cooling blocks beter than E3D by performance or not?

crynool

Good question.

On my FF I'm using the original Heatblock with the MicroSwiss Upgrade Nozzle (Nozzle + Heatbreak). They don't perform too bad, but I'm using this printer only for ABS prints even though the bed needs ages to get heated.

I thought about converting to a different solution, but not sure if this is worth the effort.

briskspirit

As I think the difference is that E3D should be cooler with more sharp transition from hot to cold zone. Have you tried to print with something like PETG? I thought about ABS but then discovered PETG as a better(imho) alternative.

crynool

Not with this one.... I'm happy that it runs pretty well with ABS.

garyd9

@briskspirit said in Dual E3D v6 on FlashForge-style printer:

1 - Better filament grip
2 - Ability to print with flexible filaments
3 - Ability to print past 250 C
4 - Less weight and more torque (maybe?)

While I certainly don't want to discourage you from making things better, you can get #3 by a simple micro swiss hot end upgrade, and #1,#2 with this item from thingiverse: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:857200 (I've been using these solutions for almost a year with great success. However, I was also able to print TPU without any hassle using the stock FFCP extruder as well.)

For #4, to preserve direct drive and dual extruders, it's more difficult using easily available stuff. For example, it's not quite possible to fit two titan aero's on the FFCP carriage (even if one aero is mirrored.) Flexion offers a retrofit kit (https://flexionextruder.com/shop/dual/), but it's expensive and I'm not sure it'd meet the goals for less weight and more torque. For this, your mock-up with the offset gears might be a great option (though I don't think it'd be less weight than stock.)

For myself, I've given up on reducing the weight of my FFCP carriage. With careful tweaking of the speed related options, I manage to get very nice prints even if it might take longer than a delta with bowden tube.

You might consider going to thingiverse, search for "flashforge" and spend a few hours paging through all the stuff people have done and shared. There are a LOT of options, and people have done some amazing things with this printer. If nothing else, browsing might give you new ideas!

garyd9

@briskspirit said in Dual E3D v6 on FlashForge-style printer:

As I think the difference is that E3D should be cooler with more sharp transition from hot to cold zone. Have you tried to print with something like PETG? I thought about ABS but then discovered PETG as a better(imho) alternative.

I jump around between PLA, PLA and PETG constantly. I'm using the micro swiss hot end (and micro swiss hardened nozzle) for both extruders on my FFCP. I don't (yet) have experience with a E3D V6, though I have a delta kit on order that uses a E3D titan Aero direct drive.

I've had no issues with clogging or heating. Like the E3D V6 hotend, you just need to ensure that your retractions are short. 2mm max.

Micro Swiss doesn't have a cooling block for the FFCP (as far as I know.) They have the nozzle and the heat break tube. The nozzle is... well.. a nozzle. The heat break tube does a fine enough job that I've never spent any time wondering about it. Is a E3D system "better" for heating or cooling? I honestly don't think any difference would be significant enough to notice.

On the other hand, the E3D stuff is very popular and finding replacement nozzles, different heat breaks, hot blocks, and other accessories is easy. Finding replacement parts for FFCP "mk10" is a bit more difficult.

briskspirit

@garyd9 Thank you for your honest opinion I am browsing through Thingverse to get some ideas but want to build something myself just to understand things better and to practice my skills in Fusion 360. As I told earlier I am bored right now and want to do something (Maybe this "something" will be a garbage or a future Mk20 :)))))

@garyd9 What speeds are you printing at? I have a QIDI X-Pro which seems to be the clone of FFCP, but I can get very good results only with 10mm/s( +0.1 accuracy, veeery small seam with no influence on dimensions, but still see extruder pulsations).
At what speeds you could get the same results? I want to get at least 30-40mm/s and I think that I have 2 main bottlenecks: bad closed source Chinese firmware + bad quality extruder/hotend

garyd9

@briskspirit said in Dual E3D v6 on FlashForge-style printer:

At what speeds you could get the same results? I want to get at least 30-40mm/s and I think that I have 2 main bottlenecks: bad closed source Chinese firmware + bad quality extruder/hotend

For PETG, 50mm/s. 55 for ABS and PLA. For TPU, I've never tried going over 20. At those max printing speeds, I get good results, but a bit of ripple that I can see, but not feel. Perimeters, first layer and top layers print more slowly. The slower speeds are the default percentages in simpify3d.

My FFCP is controlled with a Duet Ethernet and I've spent countless hours tweaking the acceleration and jerk. I've also spent time making sure my belts are tightened, everything is lubed properly, etc.

briskspirit

So I have read more about E3D v6, Micro Swiss, MK8-MK10 and etc... And then have found Titan Aero... So after that I've decided to make my new extruder based on my recent MK10 platform as E3D stepped from their long radiator too ))

So new concept:
1 - geared
2 - Bondtech filament gears
3 - slim steppers
4 - MK10 aluminum bar + Micro Swiss all metal hot end

To be continued.. ))

briskspirit

Waiting for parts now, this is what I will do:

MK8 cooling block wit M6 threads that I will drill/tap to M7 threads (E3D heat break)
one Micro Swiss all metal E3D heat break + E3D clone full bore 4.1mm heat break
E3D clone heater blocks
Micro Swiss TwinCladXT plated 0.4 nozzles.

So at the end I will get E3D compatible extruders. One will be all metal and other will be with Capricorn PTFE tube to the nozzle(for PLA)

Second stage:

Change steppers to Nema 17 1.2kg/cm (22mm long) + 2.75 gears + Bondtech gears.

So should be very reliable printing head at the end )) But will see))