Nema 23 Questions

wilriker

No seriously, I am old and I do cut and screw bits of wood together (admittedly this is career number 9 or something)

I know. But now I have to start nitpicking because originally you said you are just an old guy who... And yet your are one of the most helpful members of this community (at least to me) and I already learned quite some interesting and important stuff from you.

Now enough of the flattering. And thread hijacking - we should not let this become a habit.

TimVukman

@deckingman
Thank you for laying out the calculations. That is very helpful information. I will keep it on a piece of paper near my printer since I seem to always be changing / trying something different.

Really appreciated!!
Tim

TimVukman

@wilriker
I don't consider this thread hijacking. I found it entertaining. May be I could get a copy of that spreadsheet? I shall even ask nicely.

May I please have a copy of that wonderful spreadsheet?

Thanks.
Tim

wilriker

@timvukman I am currently reading the rather old thread the spreadsheet is based upon. Ian told me that there are some more refinements to find.

Once I gather all the information I will create a small online calculator from it. This will maybe be end of this week but rather likely start of next week. If you cannot wait that long (I could totally understand ) I will ask (hereby) @deckingman for permission to upload it as a Google Spreadsheet in the mean time.

TimVukman

I got to thinking after that discussion that the mechanical composition of the axis must have a great deal to do with the final results.

My X axis came from China. It's a complete system which has a nema 17 coupled to a lead screw. The lead screw goes through a brass threaded bearing that one would normally find on a Z axis gantry. There is nothing for anti-backlash and it chatters like crazy while printing. The play is noticable in the final printed object.

My Y has two parallel linear bearing rails, but very small linear bearings. A plate mounts to those, but only in opposite corners. I have a brass threaded bearing that the threaded rod goes through and that rod is coupled to a Nema 23. The brass bearing is held to the edge of the plate with multiple windings of wire which is quite secure but not very impressive to look at.

I really want a system that is smooth and precise. I am constantly looking at various linear motion systems, but they are expensive and I want to be sure it's the final answer before I fork out the cash.

Obviously, from the discussions in this thread there are important considerations / calculations that should be done before anything gets ordered.

I've spent quite a bit on various systems, but I could have saved quite a bit if I knew enough to buy the ideal solution up front.

Maybe I should have made a new thread for this, but I would appreciate input.

I'm also looking at CNC hardware which seems to use larger rod sizes and I don't know if that would make any difference.

Thanks
Tim

TimVukman

@wilriker
As you will see by my latest addition to this discussion, I am not in a hurry. I've hit the point where I want to stop trying to hack something together and would prefer to do it properly.
Thanks
Tim

wilriker

@timvukman said in Nema 23 Questions:

I've hit the point where I want to stop trying to hack something together and would prefer to do it properly.

I have yet to hit that point.

Anyway, I'll be posting the link to the calculator here once it is finished.

Re: your printer mechanics: I have not yet seen or heard of a (Cartesian) printer that drives anything but the Z axis with leadscrews. I have no experience on doing so but I have a feeling that this adds tons of inertia and backlash. The latter could be counteracted with anti-backlash nuts but that will add friction which again slows everything down.

My printer runs on smooth rods with Igus bearings and GT2 belts for X and Y and I am totally happy with that and backlash can easily controlled but adjusting belt tension without slowing down anything considerably.

TimVukman

Yes, I am familiar with the belt setup. My printer started as a Tevo Tarantula which was belt driven. I think I am still using two pieces of the original frame for my spool holder. Everything else has been replaced.

I did quite a bit of research before adopting the threaded rods. Everything I read about belt driven systems seemed to emphasize things like stretched belts and skipping teeth under load. I suspect now, that what I read was produced by the threaded rod companies.

I have been thinking about returning to belts. It seems like a good exercise in simplicity. Your comments on inertia and backlash are supported by experience.

Take a look at these. I find them hard to resist :). Anything used in medical ought to be smooth and accurate, I would think.

https://www.thomsonlinear.com/downloads/actuators/Stepper_Motor_Linear_Actuators_bren.pdf?utm_term=Download the new brochure %2526gt%3B&utm_campaign=How can you reduce design and assembly times&utm_content=email&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=email
regards,
Tim

deckingman

@timvukman said in Nema 23 Questions:

Yes, I am familiar with the belt setup. My printer started as a Tevo Tarantula which was belt driven. I think I am still using two pieces of the original frame for my spool holder. Everything else has been replaced.

I did quite a bit of research before adopting the threaded rods. Everything I read about belt driven systems seemed to emphasize things like stretched belts and skipping teeth under load. I suspect now, that what I read was produced by the threaded rod companies.

I have been thinking about returning to belts. It seems like a good exercise in simplicity. Your comments on inertia and backlash are supported by experience.

Take a look at these. I find them hard to resist :). Anything used in medical ought to be smooth and accurate, I would think.

https://www.thomsonlinear.com/downloads/actuators/Stepper_Motor_Linear_Actuators_bren.pdf?utm_term=Download the new brochure %2526gt%3B&utm_campaign=How can you reduce design and assembly times&utm_content=email&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=email
regards,
Tim

The trouble with forums is that they are populated by armchair engineers who read something (usually posted by someone else) which may be relevant to a 30 tonne metal shaping machine, and assume that it must me relevant to a small 3D printer for no other reason than it also has an axis that has linear motion.

Ditch the screws. Use timing belts. Timing belts don't stretch because their function is not to stretch and that is what they are designed for (the exception being imitations that come from parts of the world where people tend to be small and have funny shaped eyes).

I didn't realise that you were trying to use screws for X and Y motion. Forget that spread sheet and those calculations - they are not relevant to screw driven axes.

I haven't read the specs but the actuators you linked to will likely by too slow and have too limited travel for application in a 3D printer. Being "medical" they'll likely cost a fortune too (but I guess they'd be hygienic and won't contain nuts).

wilriker

@deckingman said in Nema 23 Questions:

(but I guess they'd be hygienic and won't contain nuts).

I'd rather say they either drive you nuts or have to ability to cure you from that state.

deckingman

@wilriker I should have said that being "medical" they'll likely cost an arm and leg but you need to be a native English speaker to understand that.

wilriker

@deckingman Now I feel confused (in my national identity) because I understand it but cannot find the German equivalent in my head right now.

TimVukman

Hi:

I haven't left, I was just busy rebuilding the printer again.

So, to the important part first.
ein Arm und ein Bein according to google translate, which does not understand context or nuances:) For all I know, the saying may not even be used in German. I find other languages challenging since they seem to have a whole different word for everything!:)

I removed my Y axis. It was never as solid as I wanted it to be. I build another box out of extruded 20 x 40 V-Slot and put a linear slide bearing on each one, I have a carriage plate spanning the two rails. On the carriage plate, I have two (one at each end - front and back) bronze threaded bearings that the lead screw goes through.

The hot bed is mounted to two rails mounted to the carriage plate. It is a very solid assembly with excellent movement. I went back to the Nema 17 motor and changed the config.g setting back to what they were before the Nema 23.

I printed an almost perfect configuration cube. (the corners aren't perfectly square and I know I have some play in the X axis.

Having said and done all that, I think that I am going to replace the threaded rod with belts. Physics clearly implies that belts would be smoother and provide less resistance to motion. So, I have seen pulley ends with 16 teeth, 20 teeth, etc. Is the number of teeth important? What about belt size?

This just never ends I was printing something last night, and I received a heater fault message. I now get a constant 2000 degree reading on the hot end heater. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Thanks
Tim

deckingman

@timvukman said in Nema 23 Questions:

So, I have seen pulley ends with 16 teeth, 20 teeth, etc. Is the number of teeth important? What about belt size?

This just never ends I was printing something last night, and I received a heater fault message. I now get a constant 2000 degree reading on the hot end heater. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Thanks
Tim

Pulley diameter doesn't matter too much IMO. I prefer 20 teeth as the bend radius is a but less and they seem to be more commonly available. If you do the maths, 20 tooth on a gt2 belt is 40mm per revolution so you get 5 full steps per mm (one full step is 0.2mm). With a 16 tooth pulley it's 32mm per revolution so one full step is 0.16mm which is a bit of an odd number. But in either case, for resolutions less than 0.2mm, you have to rely on micro-stepping for accuracy so not much to choose between them.

6mm wide belt is fine. I use it to throw 3Kgs around at highish speed, so for your printer it'll be perfectly OK.

2,000 degree C usually means something is open circuit (e.g. bad crimp or broken wire)

TimVukman

Thanks
I shall start understanding what I have in my collection of pulleys.

I replaced the entire extruder with a new E3d V6 that I had just received. This one did not have a plastic tube in so it jammed up on me. I now have the tube all the way in and it is extruding. It's making a mess which I would normally say is over extruding, but it is using the same bowden as the previous one which was laying down nice lines.

More investigation required, I guess, but not heater error anymore.
Tim

wilriker

@deckingman said in Nema 23 Questions:

6mm wide belt is fine. I use it to throw 3Kgs around at highish speed, so for your printer it'll be perfectly OK.

And I'd say go for genuine Gates from the start (I failed at that). They are not that much more expensive than the Chinese knock-offs but will definitely be better quality. You can search for GATES PowerGrip GT3 xxx-2MGT3-6 where the xxx is usually a length in mm. They seem to only come in closed loops (as far as what I have found) but you can of course cut them to what you need. For the longest one I found so far with 1830mm I would have to pay a little less than 9 € plus shipping - 2m Chinese belt usually cost around 3 € (admittedly including shipping) so not reason to go with the cheaper ones unless you need 10s of meters of belt.

And don't worry that they are called GT3 - this is just the new product generation and fully compatible to GT2.

TimVukman

@wilriker said in Nema 23 Questions:

GATES PowerGrip GT3 xxx-2MGT3-6

Thanks for the info. I found them on Amazon.ca, but not sure it I have length choices. Getting stuff from the UK takes almost as long as China. I haven't checked the US yet.

Since I changed out the whole hot end, I will need to recalibrate the bowden extruder by the look of the prints. What would be a good hot end? It seems the E3d V6 is touchy to get the flow set up. There are so many choices that it's hard for my level of experience to make a choice.
Thanks

deckingman

@timvukman Personally I'd go for the lite version of the V6 unless you really want to run higher than about 235degC. It has a PTFE liner which goes right through the heat sink and is much less prone to jamming. If you already have a V6, then I think you only need but the heat sink (and some PTFE tubing).

wilriker

@timvukman As it usually is: while researching for where I can buy them in/from Germany at the lowest price I was stumbling across a Canadian shop also. But for the life of me I cannot find it anymore.

TimVukman

Hi wilriker:

I did find the home site for gates belts, and I found a ton of automotive belts. I did see indications that the size I was searching for existed. I did not find it though.

In the meantime, today I switched my X and Y drives back to belts, and each is running on a linear bearing instead of wheels. I found the original belts and though I had to extend them, they are installed and tight enough that there is no skipping.

Currently printing a 20mm cube that looks fantastic. I missed the step of changing the 500mm/sec for the threaded rod down to the 100mm/sec for belts. Very smooth!

I used the extruder bar on the web interface and turned it down to 80%. Not getting the splotches of filament anymore.

Thanks so much for the assistance and suggestions. Very happy. I will find the Gates belts. Gorilla Super Glue works very well for extending belts. Just cut off a section and apply the glue so the teeth of one part mesh to the teeth of the next part. Then glue the last part back on teeth to teeth and leave the backward section inside the V-Slot.