An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.
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@o_lampe said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
................... It would be unfair, if subscribers would get the latest firmware a month before others.
What if that firmware was a beta? Would it still be unfair if non-subscribers only got to receive stable firmware, while subscribers got to try out "use at your own risk" beta versions? I have no view on this - just posing the question.
But having said all this, there doesn't have to be an incentive at all. There are many YouTubers who get donations in one form or another, just for doing what they do. But I think some sort of incentive might attract more subscribers.
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@deckingman said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
So what do other people think? Good idea? Bad idea?
Having an avenue to donate to RRF/Duet, other than purchasing products, would be nice. I once asked about it and the answer was that none was available.
As for RRF, it's main challenge is its extremely low Bus Factor. Basically it relies on a single super smart, super productive, super helpful contributor which is non sustainable long run, and I don't think contributions will change much. Compare this with the Klipper project for example which seems to attract a wider group of code developers, maybe because it's based on an easier to develop platform (SBC) or maybe because it's not tied to a specific brand.
RRF is great, and I voted for it again with my new printer, but its future is not clear and support can be practically stopped at any moment.
My 2c.
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@maxgyver said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
In this Point, I partly disagree: We have almost monthly beta updates with new features. (If you can live with some bugs here and there)
Therein lies the rub. I'm not being critical of Duet - I think they do a reasonable job with the resources at their disposal. You say, there are "almost monthly beta updates (with bugs)" but contrast that with regular monthly stable updates (without bugs) and you see what could be achieved with more resources.
TBH, when I look back at the many hundreds of hours I've spent testing beta firmwares and release candidates over the years, some of which have wrecked my machine, I'd much rather have donated the price of a cup of coffee a month to by-pass that grief and have stable firmware updates.
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@deckingman said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
TBH, when I look back at the many hundreds of hours I've spent testing beta firmwares and release candidates over the years, some of which have wrecked my machine, I'd much rather have donated the price of a cup of coffee a month to by-pass that grief and have stable firmware updates.
I strongly agree
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@arnold_r_clark We'll wait and see if E3Ds approach works. I doubt that the cloners will take much notice of patents. The cynic in me thinks that any money E3D save by trying to prevent cloners, will be more than absorbed by the legal fees they will have to pay to try and ensure compliance. (The lawyers will of course make a packet).
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We, as a company, would have liked to have had some Duet3D services related to the development of products based on Duet3D boards and firmware, directly from their creators.
A value-added service, which we would gladly pay for, as we do with all our developers, but with the advantage of being able to develop our products more efficiently and faster, well supported, with clear savings in the learning curve and uncertainty.
I understand that it is a different line of business and that they would have to think about how to continue helping altruistically the rest of makers and amateurs.
These value-added services for "OEMs" would be an important source of income for a small company. Just look at the developments made by E3D-Online for manufacturers such as Ultimaker, Lulzbot, BCN3D, Prusa, etc. Behind these synergies, new ideas and R&D developments often emerge that we do not doubt are economically profitable for the parties.
As @deckingman said, this is an opinion, an open proposal, we do not intend to tell anyone how to run their company.
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@marcossf said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
We, as a company, would have liked to have had some Duet3D services related to the development of products based on Duet3D boards and firmware, directly from their creators.
We do this already. We work with OEMs a lot. Please get in touch with @T3P3Tony or @dc42 to discuss your requirements, by emailing sales@duet3d.com
Ian
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@droftarts said
We do this already. We work with OEMs a lot. Please get in touch with @T3P3Tony or @dc42 to discuss your requirements, by emailing sales@duet3d.com
Ian
We asked for this several times in the forum. This is new for us. We'll contact them soon. Thank you Ian.
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@arnold_r_clark said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
to combat the cloner's maybe it is time for Duet3D to follow E3D's lead who have been forced into protecting their business's financial future by putting protection systems in place to prevent cloner's from stealing their work,
I don't think that China has much interest in Duet3d's designs at this point. They are charting their own course now with products such as SKR, Spyder, and Octopus which complement independent firmware packages from Klipper and others. Same goes with other 3D printer components. They follow the journey that Japan and South Korea had in the past, from crappy cheap clones to quality self designed products and market dominance.
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Oh boy, a great thread!
First a shout out to Home Assistant - great product. Their donation/subscription model must be low key or I am too cheap because I was not aware that I could support them. I will need to look into that.
Octoprint is totally supported by donations. I believe the incentive there is a regular video from Gina, the person that does the development to her subscribers. It's basically a regular status update - this is what we are doing, this is where we going etc etc..
I have sent her a few dollars here and there when I was using Octoprint on a regular basis.
In both of the above cases, the developer has no actual product they are selling so donations are essential.The problem with open source is limited income which in turn causes limited resources and in a lot of cases it ends up that one person carries the vast majority of the load. This is a big problem because of the probability of burnout and what I call the 'bus factor'. 'Bus factor' is my scenario if the primary person suddenly is no longer available (hit by a bus or, these days, Covid).
This is my incentive for donating .... giving some resources to the developer to off-load some tasks to other people and possibly to strengthen the base of the product in case shit hits the fan for some reason or other.
My support to Duet is based on buying their product but I agree that other/additional avenues should exist.
I do not require a 'reward'. The project moving ahead and being on solid footing is my reward. I do not give on a monthly basis but rather on a 'when I feel like it' basis. While this makes for an unpredictable revenue stream, the hope is that it averages out with may contributors.
I have seen a number of great projects fall apart or going 'closed source' and it generally kills the project for me and I end up moving elsewhere. It always feels a bit like betrayal but a lot of times the core person just burns out and going closed source offers better rewards for the thousands of hours put into the project (or the funds to hire people to help)Anyway, a thumbs up to the idea of being able to donate additional money if one feels like it.
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@jens55 said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
.............First a shout out to Home Assistant - great product. Their donation/subscription model must be low key or I am too cheap because I was not aware that I could support them. I will need to look into that...........
They call it home assistant cloud. Here is a link which will take you to further links. https://www.home-assistant.io/cloud/
It gives you secure remote access to the UI, integration with both Google Home and Amazon Alexa, Webhooks, TTS and a bunch of other stuff. There is also a 30 day free trial. TBH, I'd donate $5 a month just to support them, (but the additional "goodies" are nice to have).
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I want to add my view to the discussion:
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subscriptions are in my view double-edged: often a donator expects a hidden or visible win. If I were the Duet team, I would instead preserve my freedom. Of course there are successful examples of subscription models, but I would try the other possibilities first.
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a success model is linux, and viewing why they have success could lead to new ideas like more consulting, training offers or added services with value, independent of the core hardware and firmware. Increased cooperation with other companies (tools, automation, webshops etc.) is also a possibility.
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IMHO the best possibility to support the Duet team is to buy genuine Duet hardware and try to help them with support and development. The Duet hardware has superior quality like quality electronics, thick PCB copper layer, highly intergrated drivers and other interfaces etc. This should perhaps be emphasised even more.
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@arnold_r_clark said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
A key word search for Duet products on Aliexpress just threw up 14 pages
"I cherry picked and found a pattern"
Try search Aliexpress for 3d printer controller board and check the ratio between western and Chinese designs.
That's also the vibe I got in Voron circles, the hot boards are Chinese (SKR, Spider, Octopus, etc).
They are catching up, fast, as the Japanese and the South Korean did.
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I think , at some point open source becomes pointless .
And , i think RRF already reached that stage .Lets take marlin for example (i didn't use RRF at its early stages) , i remember the days when i tweaked the code to add sensors / change thermistor tables and other settings and felt like a superman .
Or the days when some of us tweaked android phones with custom firmware builds .
It was fun and all , but today at this stage , i never touched RRF source code and never tweaked it .
Same for my android phone , last time i had a phone with an open bootloader was about 10 years ago .After years of development , the software grows so big , complicated and feature packed that it becomes a real pita / needless to touch it .
So whats the point of the software to be open source at this stage ?
its only relevant to about 0.001% of total userbase , probably less. -
@hackinistrator said in An idea for a funding model for Duet firmware - discuss.:
So whats the point of the software to be open source at this stage ?
its only relevant to about 0.001% of total userbase , probably less.For one, what if Covid took out @dc42 ?? Wouldn't you at least want somebody to take over maintaining the code?
I don't touch the base code either but it gives me great comfort knowing that at any point I 'could' tweak it. -
@hackinistrator I might be that .001%, but I like to read code and make sure I can do changes if I need to (I did implement a kinematics class but never submitted it upstream because I feel it's incomplete and no usable machine design exists to use it). But I also read documentation and sometimes update small things on the wiki, so I may be an outlier.
