Wavy surface problem.
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@luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:
have you run them through the EMF calculator? if you're driving them fast with low VMOT, they can get noisy as the stepper drivers are unable to deliver a smooth curve to the motors.
Yes, I know it's normal for the steppers to be noise at high speed. My travel speed is 300mm/s, and they are as noisy as they are supposed to be at that speed at 24V. The problem is with more normalish speeds, like 50-60mm/s. I know it can be steppter's resonance, but only with this Moons' pair and a lowish current I've managed to tame it to acceptable noise, while with my other printer I have to look at bltouch light moving to be sure it's printing (it has older TMC plug-in chips and a crap 8 bit Marlin board).
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@egon-net
2660's aren't the quietest drivers, but it might be worth to check out per-motor register tuning? I'm thinking of the same as I can't seem to get my 60mm LDO motors to be at all quiet, but those are high-inductance.
Could it be full frame resonance? Maybe add some weight to the base and see if that changes the natural freq and quiets it down at slow speeds
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@luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:
@egon-net
2660's aren't the quietest drivers, but it might be worth to check out per-motor register tuning? I'm thinking of the same as I can't seem to get my 60mm LDO motors to be at all quiet, but those are high-inductance.Could it be full frame resonance? Maybe add some weight to the base and see if that changes the natural freq and quiets it down at slow speeds
My old printer has the TMC2130 drivers IIRC, in spreadCycle mode and just shy of 1A. Can't configure anything else, and they are scary silent (can't hear them out of the enclosure if not moving fast)
My new printer is built like a brick (3060/306060 extrusions bolted directly) and all metal. Maybe being too rigid means any vibration gets amplified by it...
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My old printer has the TMC2130 drivers IIRC, in spreadCycle mode and just shy of 1A. Can't configure anything else, and they are scary silent (can't hear them out of the enclosure if not moving fast)
My new printer is built like a brick (3060/306060 extrusions bolted directly) and all metal. Maybe being too rigid means any vibration gets amplified by it...
I tried to optmize the TMC parameters with an oscilloscope monitoring the current measuring resistor, but couldn't get any better than default.
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@egon-net just using extrusion without extra mass+damping definitely will vibe everything extra.
My printers are 2040-4040, and without damping and extra mass are loud from just mechanical vibrations.
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So. I made a picture comparison to be really clear about VFAs, ie very fine artifacts.
(please look at it real size, else moire effect is pronounced)First it's something that you'll only on a carefuly tuned printer. Else it will be "hidden" by other things.
It is super super visible with shiny filaments like petg (or colorfabb ngen in my case).
It looks like very fine tiny vertical "waves", like ghosting, but with a constant amplitude.I still absolutly don't know what produces it exactly.
However, in the picture attached :- both parts sliced from the exact same stl
- both parts sliced with the same slicer profile in prusaslicer, just a lot faster for the klipper test
- settings copied from the duet config when i switched to klipper (i mean no recalibration process)
- pid's were obviously re-made after firmware switch
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@tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:
So. I made a picture comparison to be really clear about VFAs, ie very fine artifacts.
(please look at it real size, else moire effect is pronounced)First it's something that you'll only on a carefuly tuned printer. Else it will be "hidden" by other things.
It is super super visible with shiny filaments like petg (or colorfabb ngen in my case).
It looks like very fine tiny vertical "waves", like ghosting, but with a constant amplitude.I still absolutly don't know what produces it exactly.
However, in the picture attached :- both parts sliced from the exact same stl
- both parts sliced with the same slicer profile in prusaslicer, just a lot faster for the klipper test
- settings copied from the duet config when i switched to klipper (i mean no recalibration process)
- pid's were obviously re-made after firmware switch
I'd try again with Klipper at 50mm/s2, since I've noticed that VFA is way more noticeable with slower speed, just to be sure.
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@luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:
@egon-net just using extrusion without extra mass+damping definitely will vibe everything extra.
My printers are 2040-4040, and without damping and extra mass are loud from just mechanical vibrations.
It already weights 30+ kg... It's quite tall.
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@egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story
anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130. -
@tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:
@egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story
anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130.Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...
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@egon-net said in Wavy surface problem.:
Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...
Sure. as soon as the current print finishes i'll do that.
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@luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:
my largest is 622x622x1000, and i still added 30kg of concrete to the base.
shrug
And then you threw it to the river XDD Just joking...
Did u really noticed a decrease in noise/ringing after adding so much extra weight?
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Suprisingly, yes!
I forget what the numbers were for feeds+speeds, but it made a considerable improvment for $12
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@luke-slaboratory said in Wavy surface problem.:
Suprisingly, yes!
I forget what the numbers were for feeds+speeds, but it made a considerable improvment for $12
Holy cow! What a difference!
I already have installed an accelerometer, just waiting for the montion planner overhaul with imput shaping in reprapfirmware...
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@luke-slaboratory So is that improvement from adding the extra mass to the printer?
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Yessir! Both pictures were me trying to find the worst light where I was, but I fully admit that they're not 1:1 comparative since they weren't taken in the same spot.
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@luke-slaboratory That's interesting though. Complex things these printers!
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@tpra Hello. That print result is excellent ! Can you show me a photo how your printer is constructed?
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@egon-net said in Wavy surface problem.:
@tpra said in Wavy surface problem.:
@egon-net same quality at low speed. even better actually.
if i don't go faster with rrf it's because it produces too much ghosting but that's another story
anyway klipper produces the same quality from 40 to 130.Can you test Klipper without input shaper? I wonder how much of the quality increase is beacuse of it...
I am very curious to see this as well!
Input shaper benefits are pretty well established at this point, and I am anxiously awaiting the feature to roll out for RRF (hopefully supporting my Maestro board). But, I have had a suspicion that something in RRF is driving the steppers in a way that sets up a resonance.
