What is my speed limit?
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Scott, have you tried elmoret's recommendation .4 layer width and .2 layer height? The default settings of a slicers layer width will naturally slow down how fast you can print.
I run a 40w heater with copper block and nozzle without a sock and have no issues printing 60mm/s parimeters with above layer settings.
No I haven't. And in truth I didn't know you could control the two separately.
I just tried googling how to adjust the layer width in S3D throughout the print and I didn't find anything definitive.
But I did find a couple of hints and I have formulated a guess and I am hoping you can confirm if I am right.You would control the parameter and infill width by the parameter outline count. Meaning, if printing at 0.2 layer height and setting 2 parameter outlines. Correct?
That parameter outline setting dictates the infill width if I read it correctly.
How would that effect resolution? Or would it at all?
If I have this figured right, adjusting to these layer settings wouldn't necessarily increase print speed, but decrease print time.I hope you tell me that I figured it out correctly, because I am feeling like a 3D Printing Master right now.
I spent a few minutes last night cutting out the holes in some extra socks that I have, with a pair of wire snips. They're not pretty but it's all about function over fashion, right?
I really do appreciate everyone's help.
Maybe one of these days I'll take a trip to England and I'll buy you all a beer. You guys drink that dark beer with STUFF floating around in the bottom of the glass, I think.
Or you all could come to South Alabama, USA and I could introduce you to sweet iced tea and grits.
S3D might default that to something else.
Normal place to change layer height.
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Exactly what he posted in the images, extrusion width is the layer width, setting that to manual (s3d defaults to auto) and setting it to .4 width then setting layer height to .2 will give you better results.
As a rule of thumb i use extrusion width to match nozzle size so if you had a .35 nozzle then you would set .35 width.
This is just my opinion but slicers should be used to compensate for different filament types and your printer should be firmware tuned to work with PLA with a layer width matching your nozzle size and a perimeter overlap of 5%
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I'm embarrassed. I always thought that meant the nozzle size, and affiliated with the input right above it when you set the actual nozzle size.
So it was dumb luck that I had already had that set to manual and 0.40.I do have a happy update…
I installed the sock onto the heater block, and I finally got a chance to play around with pressure advance.
This is at 100mm/s, 0.16 layer height, and 210C. PLA+
I am quite pleased with myself.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15733846/20170719_184505.mp4
Well….I thought it would show a thumbnail but at least it's a hyperlink.
Total and complete difference.
It would usually blow out while laying the line. Leaving the line ghastly under-extruded and/or broken completely.
The infill was always worse. (60% infill) But now it is full and uniform.Even though I didn't see a temperature fluctuation there must have been cold spots next to the orifice and nozzle.
It's the only thing I can figure. -
nice looking build are those igus carbon rods?
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Thank you!
Not Igus, but according to the listing, Arris.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TF8UY9A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I had to buy 2 sets because on the first order I found 1 to be bent 2/3 of the way.
The 2nd order both were straight.You'll notice the vendor as "Hobby-Wing". So they were probably meant for RC aero stuff.
I used to be into RC Helicopters like an addict would be into heroin and these are exactly like the rods I would use on my smaller electric choppers for the tail boom and landing skids.I am however using Igus bearings on the X-carriage. They were a little tight at first and I helped them out a little with some machine oil and they have been really turned out nice.
I have several hours on the machine and I took the carriage off just the other night to installed a modified version and I check the bearing tolerance and they were still very tight, yet sliding very smoothly. I would like to upgrade the Y carriage to Igus as well. I have linear bearings on it now. You could probably hear them screaming on the video.I think if I replaced those bearings, and got a quieter hotend fan, it would be near silent.
EDIT:
After re-reading what I just posted, I mentioned that the rods were bent. Wrong choice of words.
The diameter was not consistent all the way across the rod. The bearing would hang 2/3 across pretty bad.
I could've sanded them but since the other rod was perfect I opted to throw the dice and order another set.
I got lucky and both rods were perfect. -
Exactly what he posted in the images, extrusion width is the layer width, setting that to manual (s3d defaults to auto) and setting it to .4 width then setting layer height to .2 will give you better results.
As a rule of thumb i use extrusion width to match nozzle size so if you had a .35 nozzle then you would set .35 width.
This is just my opinion but slicers should be used to compensate for different filament types and your printer should be firmware tuned to work with PLA with a layer width matching your nozzle size and a perimeter overlap of 5%
I have a slightly different approach to extrusion width (for layers 2 and above, I usually use 200% for layer 1). If you extrude into free air from a 0.4mm nozzle (which you have verified using micro drill bits to measure, actually is 0.4mm, as many are 0.43, 0.44, 0.38 etc..) and then measure the cold extruded filament you'll see a larger diameter than 0.4mm due to die-swell, the filament expands slightly after being extruded. It might be 0.48 for a 0.4mm nozzle and indeed this is the default extrusion width for s3d and slic3r. If I get a value a lot higher when measuring the extruded filament say 0.52mm then I use that as my extrusion width. Provided your steps/mm for E are accurately calibrated and your extruder is doing its job properly, no skipping/slipping etc then you can tweak the extrusion width by doing a series of test cubes 20x20x10 with say 0.38, 0.4, 0.44, 0.48, 0.52 and chose the best one. Often the top layer is a nice indication of how well this is tuned, as first layer effects have faded by then.
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Exactly what he posted in the images, extrusion width is the layer width, setting that to manual (s3d defaults to auto) and setting it to .4 width then setting layer height to .2 will give you better results.
As a rule of thumb i use extrusion width to match nozzle size so if you had a .35 nozzle then you would set .35 width.
This is just my opinion but slicers should be used to compensate for different filament types and your printer should be firmware tuned to work with PLA with a layer width matching your nozzle size and a perimeter overlap of 5%
I have a slightly different approach to extrusion width (for layers 2 and above, I usually use 200% for layer 1). If you extrude into free air from a 0.4mm nozzle (which you have verified using micro drill bits to measure, actually is 0.4mm, as many are 0.43, 0.44, 0.38 etc..) and then measure the cold extruded filament you'll see a larger diameter than 0.4mm due to die-swell, the filament expands slightly after being extruded. It might be 0.48 for a 0.4mm nozzle and indeed this is the default extrusion width for s3d and slic3r. If I get a value a lot higher when measuring the extruded filament say 0.52mm then I use that as my extrusion width. Provided your steps/mm for E are accurately calibrated and your extruder is doing its job properly, no skipping/slipping etc then you can tweak the extrusion width by doing a series of test cubes 20x20x10 with say 0.38, 0.4, 0.44, 0.48, 0.52 and chose the best one. Often the top layer is a nice indication of how well this is tuned, as first layer effects have faded by then.
My method is slightly different using a single wall 40mm test cube with .4 and then lowering temp until i get within .02 +/- tolerences for the filament i am using.
I understand the reasoning behind your method just that i have seen some great results doing things this way which i know is against the norm and as such used the my opinion disclaimer
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Thank you!
Not Igus, but according to the listing, Arris.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TF8UY9A/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I had to buy 2 sets because on the first order I found 1 to be bent 2/3 of the way.
The 2nd order both were straight.You'll notice the vendor as "Hobby-Wing". So they were probably meant for RC aero stuff.
I used to be into RC Helicopters like an addict would be into heroin and these are exactly like the rods I would use on my smaller electric choppers for the tail boom and landing skids.I am however using Igus bearings on the X-carriage. They were a little tight at first and I helped them out a little with some machine oil and they have been really turned out nice.
I have several hours on the machine and I took the carriage off just the other night to installed a modified version and I check the bearing tolerance and they were still very tight, yet sliding very smoothly. I would like to upgrade the Y carriage to Igus as well. I have linear bearings on it now. You could probably hear them screaming on the video.I think if I replaced those bearings, and got a quieter hotend fan, it would be near silent.
EDIT:
After re-reading what I just posted, I mentioned that the rods were bent. Wrong choice of words.
The diameter was not consistent all the way across the rod. The bearing would hang 2/3 across pretty bad.
I could've sanded them but since the other rod was perfect I opted to throw the dice and order another set.
I got lucky and both rods were perfect.Nice, you should try the igus filaments, i actually like them better than the igus bushings but for reasons that sound like are not an issue with your rods
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My method is slightly different using a single wall 40mm test cube with .4 and then lowering temp until i get within .02 +/- tolerances for the filament i am using.
For answering the speed limit question I have become a fan of 'volumetric printing'. similar to Whitewolf's comment in that it is specific to the filament.
See point #9 in this post: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361 – the steps are a bit poorly written but essentially you work out the best temperature and max flow rate for your filament + extruder/hotend/nozzle. Don't know about S3D but you can plug this result into the dev versions of Slic3r and set all the individual speeds to 'auto'. Thanks dc42 and Deckingman for the pressure advance conversations, because that tweak took out the few blobs I was still seeing.This works great for 'normal' objects, though still slow down for fine detail stuff that perhaps needs cooling time -- but now there are only max flow and max speed knobs to adjust.
YMMV of course, interested to read what others think of this.
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I think I have it dialed in nicely. I am getting really nice prints from the PLA+ roll I have been tuning with.
Then I put on a roll PETG. Good grief. I could print it beautifully on my old clone, but this printer just doesn't like it.
I blame the brand just a little. I bought a brand new roll of eSun and I have spent several hours this weekend trying to get it dialed in with no success. I pulled out an old roll of Hatchbox PETG and it looks pretty good. I can work with this. But I have had to lower my speed down to 35mm/s to get it to act right. I could squeeze 50mm/s out of the p;d machine.Then moral of this story is I concur that with pressure advance being a great addition because I have zero stringing and very few blobs with PETG. When before, even though the print looked great, it needed a shave. I am still having trouble with deformed corners though. For instance if I print a test cube, the sidewalls are smooth and uniform but the corners bulge in places and the layers a slightly out of line. I always though that was an over/under-extruding problem that I hoped Pressure Advance would eliminate.
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…............................... I put on a roll PETG. Good grief. I could print it beautifully on my old clone, but this printer just doesn't like it.
I blame the brand just a little. I bought a brand new roll of eSun and I have spent several hours this weekend trying to get it dialed in with no success.Yup, had exactly the same problem with eSun PETG. The worst stuff I have ever tried to print with (and yes, it's the brand, not PETG) - did a write up on blog - see here https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2017/05/18/esun-petg-and-e3d-edge/. One of my blog followers asked me to send it to him which I did. He found exactly the same issues that I had. He's been trying to dry it out which has improved it somewhat but it's still not good. Our conclusion is that it must have been immersed in a swimming pool for a few days before it was eventually retrieved, vacuum packed and then sold to unsuspecting punters :). E3D Edge (which is also PETG) was so much better - likes to ooze and also has an affinity to sticking to the side of the nozzle but strength is good and bridging is amazing IMO.
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Sounds like you have more tuning to do, i would suggest turning pressure advance off and getting everything looking great before turning it on.
PETG is one of the nicest filaments to print with in fact i dont use ABS petg is my goto (i dont use cheap filaments so cant say that your mileage wont vary)
For PETG there are three brands i like: Taulamn TechG, Taulman Guidl!ne, 3Dxtech and RigidInk
With these i have no issues printing at 75mm/s
the prints look great with PA on or off. your calibration issues shouldnt be solved with PA it should only be used to perfect and already great looking print.
Follow my advice about using a single parimeter, 0 infill, 0 top or bottom layer 40mm cube.
You can print these at 60mm/s and tune from there. Did you try the 3600 extruder jerk setting like i suggested? also try your retraction speed at both 55 and 100mm/s to see the difference
Next make sure there are no kinks or crimps in your ptfe tube, i also suggest printing off a coupler clip for the hotend where the ptfe enters the groovemount.
Make sure your idler spring has enough tension that it is not slipping during retraction (PA can also worsen this if not set properly)
Also try setting your extrusion multiplier to 95%
next use a caliper on the test cube walls at each corner to see if your wall thickness is getting good tolerences at each corner you want as close to .4 width as possible…. if every corner is different then something is a miss if they are way too thick turn down the temp
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also send M122 to gcode console half way into a print to check that your extruder isnt missing any steps.
Once you get proper extrusion under control the next step would be to set your pressure advance…. and once everything is coming along perfectly put the final touch on by changing your extruder from 16x to 32x microstepping.... doing so your prints will really shine and yes you can set the extruder to 32x while leaving the others at 16x
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My method is slightly different using a single wall 40mm test cube with .4 and then lowering temp until i get within .02 +/- tolerances for the filament i am using.
For answering the speed limit question I have become a fan of 'volumetric printing'. similar to Whitewolf's comment in that it is specific to the filament.
See point #9 in this post: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361 – the steps are a bit poorly written but essentially you work out the best temperature and max flow rate for your filament + extruder/hotend/nozzle. Don't know about S3D but you can plug this result into the dev versions of Slic3r and set all the individual speeds to 'auto'. Thanks dc42 and Deckingman for the pressure advance conversations, because that tweak took out the few blobs I was still seeing.This works great for 'normal' objects, though still slow down for fine detail stuff that perhaps needs cooling time -- but now there are only max flow and max speed knobs to adjust.
YMMV of course, interested to read what others think of this.
Nice post, Scott should give that a read. Yeah the best prints i have seen come from calibrating each filament this way… i then just save a new process named after the filament in S3d so its a cakewalk when switching back to the same filament.
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I generally purchase my filament from Amazon. It's quick and easy and I generally rely on the customer reviews on what is good and what is crap. Ironically, eSun PETG is the only PETG filament out of many with 5 star reviews. I ordered a roll of Hatchbox last night and it's on its way.
I am open to try a different brand but usually it's more expensive, and add in shipping from the other side of the planet and I just can't justify the cost when I really don't know how it's gonna react. But I trust all of you guys opinions immensely and curiosity is killing me to try the ones that was recommended here. I will be shopping around later unless there is one that someone could recommend over the whole lot.
Whitewolf, I did indeed take your advice so please forgive me for not elaborating on it sooner. I noticed an immediate different in my extruder when I changed the jerk to 3600. But I left the Z speeds alone. They seemed to be working nicely and as you mentioned I don't use the Z hop feature either. I haven't taken my retract settings any faster than about 65mm/s because I didn't think I needed to, but I want to take it up higher now per your point. I just want to see what it does.
For the record, per the advice I have gotten the last few days, here is what I settled on in my config.g:[[language]] M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1 ; Configure microstepping with interpolation M92 X99.5 Y99.5 Z399.7 E79.9 ; Set steps per mm M566 X1500 Y1500 Z150 E3600 ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (Jerk)(mm/min) M203 X12000 Y12000 Z375 E9000 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min) M201 X1200 Y1200 Z150 E1200 ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2) M906 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E1200 I30 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent M84 S30 ; Set idle timeout M572 D0 S0.3 ;Pressure AdvanceAnd I did read the article. Very informative. And coincidentally I had learned a lot of that months ago when I bought my first printer. After putting it together and pushing the power button, it only took me about 2 seconds that this ain't no Hewlett Packard Inkjet printer. There is some tinkering about to ensue.
Regarding the PETG again,
Up till now I have done the usual, checking the filament diameter, and playing around with slicer settings to get a good flow going, but I have never took the time to calibrate for a given filament as mentioned above. But I am gonna give it try. -
Based on another thread i am involved in, it sounds like its hit or miss regarding brand of PETG. if you are the US then the taulman techg, guidline or blueprint will work well … if you are euro then rigidink
honestly between the taulmans they are all great, just matters whats more important to you, food safe, strength or price.... they are all strong but techg does have a little flex to it with 10mm thick parts.... most important part is as long as your bed is level they print as easy as PLA for me anyways
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Yes, sir. I am in the US.
Thank you for the recommendation.
I will check them out.To be able to print PETG at 75mm/s would be awesome. I plan on making table top arcades for my and my girlfriend's kids for Christmas. I found one on Thingiverse that is really nice, but the printing for each one will be a long process.
I pulled up two of the panels for the sides of the cabinet in S3D and at the 35mm/s that I am forced to print now, it would be over 48 hours. I am guessing about 150 hours per cabinet x 4 cabinets, is gonna be a long haul. Not to mention the wiring afterward.I thought I had found my dream filament in PLA+.
It prints as easy as PLA and it really is very strong. But I discovered that it doesn't handle even moderate heat well at all.
I printed all of my new printers parts in PETG and as you mentioned too, I love it. But it's just such a slow going.
I have a piece of a roll of Hatchbox PETG now, that is behaving very well.
I am going to try the exercises above to see if I can gain any speed with it.
I hope that you are right and I just need to tweak things a bit more and it's not a limitation of the filament. -
…............................... I put on a roll PETG. Good grief. I could print it beautifully on my old clone, but this printer just doesn't like it.
I blame the brand just a little. I bought a brand new roll of eSun and I have spent several hours this weekend trying to get it dialed in with no success.Yup, had exactly the same problem with eSun PETG. The worst stuff I have ever tried to print with (and yes, it's the brand, not PETG) - did a write up on blog - see here https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2017/05/18/esun-petg-and-e3d-edge/. One of my blog followers asked me to send it to him which I did. He found exactly the same issues that I had. He's been trying to dry it out which has improved it somewhat but it's still not good. Our conclusion is that it must have been immersed in a swimming pool for a few days before it was eventually retrieved, vacuum packed and then sold to unsuspecting punters :). E3D Edge (which is also PETG) was so much better - likes to ooze and also has an affinity to sticking to the side of the nozzle but strength is good and bridging is amazing IMO.
I read the article. Nicely done!
Your blog is bookmarked!
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Here's some craziness that maybe you guys have run across but it's surprising to me…
The roll of Hatchbox PETG has about 1/3 of a roll left and it's been sitting in an air tight box with a handful of silica gel baggies lining the floor for about the last 1 1/2 months.. There are various other filaments stored in there as well.
I mentioned earlier the trouble I was having with the eSun. So I am tweaking my settings per the conversation I had with Whitewolf with the Hatchbox roll.
I used to have to set my retraction length and speed pretty high to minimize stringing and blobs with the very roll on the old printer.
I am printing out a cylinder and a cube at various settings, and I have Pressure Advance turned off and the retraction settings at about what I had set for PLA and I have ZERO stringing and blobs. I had to double check the label to make sure I grabbed the right roll.
I know I haven't tweaked this machine to perfection. Do you think that maybe it sitting in the storage container so long has effected it? The only issues I have is a little under-extrusion during the infill. But I slowed the speed down a touch and it has improved a lot.I am just shocked. Because of my personal experience and EVERYTHING I have ever read about PETG stringing and ooze is a normal characteristic and I am getting none of that. I think I will let the eSun roll of disaster bake in the box for a few weeks and revisit it just to see.
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Well congrats 'cos it sounds like you are getting your printer dialled in really well. It also sounds like Hatchbox PETG is pretty good stuff. The e-sun stuff obviously has a problem which seems to get a bit better if it can be dried out. I'd guess variations between brands could be expected due to the "G". PET is pretty much a basic polymer (Polyethylene terephthalate) but the "G" means it has been Glycol modified. I'm no chemist but I'd guess that this modification process could be a bit variable between brands/manufacturers leading to different characteristics. Then again, you'd think that all PLA is equal but it certainly isn't in my experience. I was once supplied a roll of Verbatim PLA as a more expensive substitute for the "normal" PLA that I'd ordered. It was awful stuff to print with compared to other brands. So if Hatchbox PETG works for you, then stick with it.
