Microswiss settings?
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I do not think that this is a steel nozzle. The kit is laying here around since a couple of month, so I'm not 100% sure. But the kits, they sell at my usual suppliers, list the nozzles as "Brass Plated Wear Resistant MK8 .4mm Nozzle", so my educated guess is that we speak about a brass nozzle here.
Tuned the "E-steps" before that print. I will play a bit with the temperatures, lets see if I will get better results when I start from scratch.
@PDBeal
I have no adhesion issues, luckily. I think it is more a problem with the temperature vs. the cooling.Cheers, Chriss
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@Chriss If it was brass plated, it would be brass coloured. But regardless of that, even if it is brass plated, that plating would be very thin and if it's wear resistant, that would indicate it's made from hardened steel which is a relatively poor conductor. I recently did an investigation on what happens inside a nozzle with just deflected part cooling air (not directly blowing over the nozzle) and the effect on steel nozzles was alarming (nearly 40 deg C temperature drop). https://somei3deas.wordpress.com/2020/05/21/the-effect-of-deflected-part-cooling-air-on-brass-and-steel-nozzle-temperatures/
So I would suggest you try with brass nozzle, and/or turn off or drastically reduce any part cooling.
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Have you got it installed correctly?
By that I mean have you got the heat block wound onto the heat break so that the nozzle is not wound all the way home and seated hard against the heat block. It needs to be that there is a bit of thread showing between the nozzle hex and the heat block, so you know the nozzle threaded end is "snugged up" against the heat break inside the heat block.
You also need to tighten the nozzle while the hot end is heated up, very important.
I'm sorry if you know that already, but there's something grossly wrong to give you that result, so you really need to go back through the basics like esteps, temps, extrusion ratio and retraction. Too much retraction can give you issues with an all metal hot end too, so you might want to start at 1mm for an ender/bowden setup and expect to end up at 3-5mm at 30mm/sec.
Another point could well be the heat break fan....you definitely want that running when the hot end is over 50 degC.
If you have the standard ender (ie crap) bowden fittings, you may have had one fail...look for the tube moving in/out with retractions, which is bad. The bowden tube has to be held firm at both ends, and Creality's tube fittings are known to fail.
Please excuse me if I sound like I'm telling "my father how to *&$#", but you've got a fundamental issue very wrong to be getting those messy prints.
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From my understanding is the material brass:
"This is MK8 style nozzle, it is made from a 360 brass base material and plated with TwinClad XT coating. TwinClad XT is a nickel composite coating designed for very low friction. "
https://store.micro-swiss.com/collections/nozzles/products/mk8I'm a bit confused that the behavior, compared with the stock hotend, is so dramatically different.
Thanks for the link, I will take some time to read and understand it.
@Corexy
I hope that I have installed it correctly. But yes, is is clear that the "neck" have to be tightened first. In short words: The air gab needs to be between the block and the nozzle to make sure that the "neck" and the nozzle are tight.No no, I it is very good to start from ground up. I'm in my bubble right now, so it makes sense to start from scratch.
I learned in a former thread that I had to put far more head on the stock hotend (PLA 230°C) and I reduced the fan to 60%. That worked very well.
Short checklist:
The bowden is tight (no more original fitting)
Extruder: Bondtech
E-Steps calibrated (Stock Hotend: E409.51 Microswiss: E431.06) :?
Retraction: 8mm 20mm/s
Temp: 230°CThe good thing is that my firs layer sucks at the moment too. So I do not have to worry with cooling for now.
I will proceed with a "vase" for now to find working setting for the first layer before we end up her in the complete wrong direction.
And to be honest: I was not sooooo unhappy with the stock hotend. So I can go back in the worst case. I can take care of that bugger as soon as my corexy is working... Building a printer without a working printer is a bad idea.
Cheers, Chriss
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OMG! I'm a bloody noob....
I think that my main problem was the nozzle..... Let's me phrase it as: "The nozzle needed one more turn." 
Still not optimal, but far better than before, don't you think so?
(230°C fan 60%)
Cheers, Chriss
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I had also massive issues when upgrading to a Mosquito hotend with Bondtech extruder. It took me a a lot of tests to get rid of stringing. In the end two simple things did it: extrusion multiplier (carefully change it - ony per .1 steps) and I had to set extrusion width to fixed .4 mm.
BTW: I personally think that 230°C is a little bit too much in case you're using PLA. That could also cause stringing. Lower it a little bit. For me 215°C turnbed out to be good (also with Micro Swiss which i had before).
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@MartinNYHC said in Microswiss settings?:
Yes, the 230°C came from the problem that the layers did not stick together: https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/16709/layers-do-not-stick-together
But this problem was with the stock hotend, so let's see where I end up with the micro swiss.
Thanks for the tip with the "extrusion multiplier" and "extrusion width", both where not on my radar till you mention them.
I will tune the temperature and fan tomorrow, I will look at "extrusion multiplier" and "extrusion width" afterwards.
Cheers, Chriss
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OK,
So my thoughts on that are that 230 is quite a bit too hot for PLA. I'm running about 200 on my Ender 3, with less fan too. Usually 10-20%.
8mm is a LOT of retraction...Simplify 3D has 4mm @ 30mm/sec for the Ender 3 pro in their profile, and the CR10 is just a bigger Ender, so might pay to try that.
I'd check those esteps again at 200 degC. Bondtech says 415 steps/mm, and I ended up at 417 or something like that. They are known for being consistent across different filaments, so I think you may be wide of the mark. When you measure your 100mm for a test, mark it at 120mm and then look for 20mm left after the test (more accurate). Extrude at 5mm sec for the test.
Your first layer might just be a height issue. If you are using S3D, you can use Z offset in the Gcode section to raise/lower the nozzle a bit. It's really handy as you don't have to jerk around with that little micro switch, and you can have different subtle offsets for different material profiles. Of course you want the switch set within reason, but you can really dial it in with some offset. Negative makes it closer to the bed, positive further away. Use 0.05mm increments.
I'm sure there's an equivalent in whatever slicer you use, but if you are new I'd strongly recommend to pay for S3D and use the "canned" profile for your machine.
Do not confuse extrusion multiplier with your esteps...they are 2 different things. All the tests like measuring wall thickness etc can be a pain in the arse as well. The wall thickness is good, but then surfaces aren't. It's fickle, so you're really looking for a setting that works all round.
Please refer the points above then try this:
- Recheck your nozzle is tight with the right gap while hot.
- Recheck your bowden fittings are installed correctly.
- Recheck your esteps, or even just set them at 415. Actually, start your test at 415. It should be close to that number.
- Level your bed and set nozzle height via the micro switch. Then run some sort of level/height test you'll see on Youtube like the "Shep" test. Use your Z offset to get it right.
Then try the following settings in your slicer (assuming PLA and 0.4mm nozzle):
Layer height 0.2mm. Layer width 0.5mm
Temp. 205 first layer, then 195 after that.
Fan. 0 first layer, 20% after that.
Extrusion multiplier 0.95/95%
Speed. 40mm/s. 50% for first layer.
Retraction 4mm @ 30mm/sec.
Try 1.5mm of coast, and -0.05 extra restart distance, which might help with your blobbing/stringing.I'd buy S3D and enter the CR10 profile to be honest.
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I have a microswiss on a Ender 3 with Duet 3. I run 215C hot end and 60C bed for PLA. Make sure you tighten the nozzle TWICE. Once cold, once hot.
230C is too hot from my experience and will make the nozzle ooze a lot and create stringing.
Print a temp tower to be sure.
Railcore II 300ZL with lots of upgrades (Duet 3 6HC)
Heavily modified Ender 3 Pro (Duet 3 6HC)
Heavily modified Tronxy X5SA-500 Pro with Chimera+ and dual bondtech (Duet 3 6HC)
CR-10S Pro V2 (Duet 3 Mini 5+)
and a bunch of SLA printers.. -
A friend did some extensive testing and PLA from 4043D resin prints good at 190-210, then terrible, then decently at 250-260 again. He prints miniatures with Prusament PLA at the high temps and those yield both a glossy finish and excellent layer adhesion.
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@Thalios
You are right and not. I had problems with layer attentions at 190-220°C with the stock hotend. So I went up till 230°C against my reflex and the prints where fine there. Anyway, the microswiss is a complete gamechanger here and I need to start from scratch with most of my settings.@oliof 250°C? Wow..... I think that I will test it, just for fun....
Cheers, Chriss
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Funny that...I've never even had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA. In fact my prints are strong, glossy and defined well. Of all the materials, I would have thought it actually hard to get layer separation with PLA, as it's strong and forgiving to print.
Each to their own, but some of the numbers being mentioned here seem very hot for PLA.
I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.
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@Corexy said in Microswiss settings?:
Funny that...I've never had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA.
I had.. and enough from them. Maybe a other problem? I should check the steps for Z. :?
I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.
Me too, simply for the fact that the printer stand next to me at my desks and teh fan is very loud.
Please stop posting print porn, you make me jealous.
What am I doing wrong with these imgur links, by the way? They used to work when I pasted them on here, but they don't seem to anymore.
The link itself works, I think that you want to add the picture with
(Picture icon)
Cheers, Chriss
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@Chriss said in Microswiss settings?:
@Corexy said in Microswiss settings?:
Funny that...I've never had an issue with layer adhesion at 200 with PLA.
I had.. and enough from them. Maybe a other problem? I should check the steps for Z. :?
I try to use as cool a temp as possible, but with as little fan as possible too.
Me too, simply for the fact that the printer stand next to me at my desks and teh fan is very loud.
Please stop posting print porn, you make me jealous.
What am I doing wrong with these imgur links, by the way? They used to work when I pasted them on here, but they don't seem to anymore.
The link itself works, I think that you want to add the picture with
(Picture icon)
Cheers, Chriss
I did take a long time typing up that advice for you, and when I looked at Oliof's link on metal hotends a lot of what I said was there anyway (wish I read it first before I did all that typing).
There was even mention in that link that excessive retraction (which I'm almost positive you have) will lead to a clicking extruder, which you have described.
Trying to help you here mate, but you can only lead a horse to water and you can't make him drink.
Why not go through those steps one by one and get it going right?
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I really appreciate every input I can get. I understand that it is hard that not all of us have English as there native language and not everything is always communicated.
Back to the "mission":
What I did so far:
I confirmed this morning that the e-steps are OK.
I played a bit with the retraction and I'm at 1,5mm@30mm/s (not my current focus) Btw: The step skipping is gone since the PID auto-tuning.
I play with temperatures between 190 to 220 at the moment.I have some adhesion problems with the current setup right now. I'm more and more convinced that the change of the z-probe to a IR-Probe and the migration to a micro-swiss was not the best decision in my live.
I will fix the relation between the z-probe and be bed (again) before I take any further care of the hotend. The learning curve drives me nuts.
Cheers, Chriss
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If using the IR probe with a textured surface, you'll be fighting it all day long. I went with a smooth glass and it solved my issues.
I have the direct drive microswiss kit and it works quite well. Kinda wish I went BL probe instead of IR though..
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@Thalios
I made good experiences with the ir-probe some days ago: https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/17093/weird-headmap-since-ir-probeI have to admit that I had a tough start but it went very well with my PEI sheet. Strange to read your bad experiences.
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@Chriss said in Microswiss settings?:
I really appreciate every input I can get. I understand that it is hard that not all of us have English as there native language and not everything is always communicated.
Back to the "mission":
What I did so far:
I confirmed this morning that the e-steps are OK.
I played a bit with the retraction and I'm at 1,5mm@30mm/s (not my current focus) Btw: The step skipping is gone since the PID auto-tuning.
I play with temperatures between 190 to 220 at the moment.I have some adhesion problems with the current setup right now. I'm more and more convinced that the change of the z-probe to a IR-Probe and the migration to a micro-swiss was not the best decision in my live.
I will fix the relation between the z-probe and be bed (again) before I take any further care of the hotend. The learning curve drives me nuts.
Cheers, Chriss
I'm really wondering what the adhesion issue is all about...are you running the standard Creality thermistor and heater cartridge? Is this CR10 running the standard motherboard or a Duet board?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Z probe sets the first layer height, then the layer heights after that set by Z stepper esteps.
I am definitely NOT the one for programming, but it seems that your temps may be way off. Have you installed your thermistor and heater correctly and are the secured snugly in the heater block?
1.5mm retraction might be a little low for bowden, but 8mm certainly seemed way to high. If it hasn't made a big difference, it suggests the problem is elsewhere.
Also, to reduce stringing with PLA, don't use "Z hop" and set your free movement speed to 120mm/sec. Your machine should handle that easily if the rollers are adjusted correctly.
As PLA will print well at anything from 190-220 degC, I'm thinking there's a major problem with the heating/temp measurement. As you have been working on that area changing the hot end, it might pay to check all the components and connections there for correct installation.
If you've changed to a Duet board, it might pay to check you have entered the right values in your config file for the thermistor and heater cartridge. You'll need someone else to help with that, not my area of expertise sorry.
**And I am sorry, I didn't realize English wasn't your first language and I didn't mean to sound frustrated. I am happy to help if I can.
It can be hard to help sometimes if the person wanting help is jumping from one thing to another...in this hobby you really need to "start at one end" and go step by step. If you skip a step, the problem keeps coming back in one form or another.
I also saw in your other post that you got a v-core kit...mine just arrived yesterday, I haven't had a good look at it yet.
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@Corexy said in Microswiss settings?:
I'm really wondering what the adhesion issue is all about...are you running the standard Creality thermistor and heater cartridge? Is this CR10 running the standard motherboard or a Duet board?
Yes, the stock heater cartridge and the stock thermistor, the mainboard is a duet 2.
Unless I'm mistaken, the Z probe sets the first layer height, then the layer heights after that set by Z stepper esteps.
You are right from my understanding, too.
I was referring to my old problem with the layers which did not stick together. I checked the steps form Z a while ago, but missconfigured steps could lead to "not sticking" layers, don't they?I am definitely NOT the one for programming, but it seems that your temps may be way off. Have you installed your thermistor and heater correctly and are the secured snugly in the heater block?
Well, as good as I could. I the heater is flush with the block and tightened and the thermistor is soaked in thermal paste.
1.5mm retraction might be a little low for bowden, but 8mm certainly seemed way to high. If it hasn't made a big difference, it suggests the problem is elsewhere.
I argree the retraction is a kind of a "last 20% tuning". I feel today like I'm back at the first 10%.
Also, to reduce stringing with PLA, don't use "Z hop" and set your free movement speed to 120mm/sec. Your machine should handle that easily if the rollers are adjusted correctly.
Yes, the z-hop top thingy... I hate it.
That seems to me very much frustrating. I need it sometimes, sometimes not. Maybe the brand.. I do not know.As PLA will print well at anything from 190-220 degC, I'm thinking there's a major problem with the heating/temp measurement. As you have been working on that area changing the hot end, it might pay to check all the components and connections there for correct installation.
I had the same feeling already and I checked the wires as far as I could do it. At the end is it difficult to look though the insulation. The connectors and soldering looks ok. But this is no guarantee that there is noting wrong if things get hot or move.
If you've changed to a Duet board, it might pay to check you have entered the right values in your config file for the thermistor and heater cartridge. You'll need someone else to help with that, not my area of expertise sorry.
Not recently, the setup and parameter worked very well with the BL-Touch and the stock hotend. My problem is that the stock hotend is a bit "longer" than the micro-swiss, at least at my CR10s Pro v2, so I can not revert easily one of the two. So I decided to find the issue and not to giving up by reverting the change.
**And I am sorry, I didn't realize English wasn't your first language and I didn't mean to sound frustrated. I am happy to help if I can.
No no, everything is cool. I know how frustrating it is when you have the feeling that the other end of the communication channel does have every information but do not does the things you asked to do.
I really appreciate any help!It can be hard to help sometimes if the person wanting help is jumping from one thing to another...in this hobby you really need to "start at one end" and go step by step. If you skip a step, the problem keeps coming back in one form or another.
For sure... But I make progress here too and I see other behaviors which moved my "end to work on" a bit away from the original problem.
I also saw in your other post that you got a v-core kit...mine just arrived yesterday, I haven't had a good look at it yet.
Yes, the v-core is next to me. Since a month.... I'm such a fool.... I have the 3Z version but I have forgotten to order a third motor.
I wait since 4 weeks not for the motor and some other tiny bits and pieces. ( This guys are far to slow for me.) I tuned the pid values this morning and the hotend was off during the night, so I can guarantee that the hotend is at room temp:
old: (yesterday)M307 H1 A418.8 C146.3 D3.1 S1.00 V24.0 B0new 1: (first run today)
M307 H1 A461.9 C157.4 D3.1 S1.00 V24.0 B0new2: (second run today)
M307 H1 A461.2 C156.1 D3.1 S1.00 V24.0 B0The bed and the hotend reported 26°C temperature, which is very much like my room temperature. (OK one 26.4 the other one 26.5)
The pid tuning today was done with all fans in the off state.I have to go back to work now. The next steps will be a cube in a "vase mode" to bring back a first layer which sticks to the bed before I start changing anything at retracting etc.
Cheers, Chriss
