[Revo] New hot end system from E3D?
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@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
But I expect E3D have some idea that it works...
I would say yes, I have no issues with the new hot end it's small it's fast, and it works very fine
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@zapta said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback, maybe the curve 'bend' does at a higher temperature.
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
A video by Nero3D also suggests that the Revo hot ends has lower thermal mass which results in faster heating and cooling.
In Sanjay's interview with Vector3D, he mentioned that the heater maxes out with a "mild glow" at the very worst case (using a 12V heater with a 36V supply), so yea, very likely that at 300C nothing crazy happens yet. However, you ca see that the avg PWM is higher than "normal" heaters.
@o_lampe said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback @jay_s_uk
It would be interesting to see tuning results made with different target temps. That's probably the only way to tell any difference between PTC or linear resistance heaters.
My gutt feeling tells me, you can't just tune for PLA-temp and expect same stable result at ABS- or higher temps.I have various stages of this on my TC and they are all tuned for 240°C. I've had no issues with stability with that tuning in the range that I usually print in (210°C to 290°C)
The super quick response times usually help PID controls to oscillate at higher frequencies, ie less visible. -
@weed2all said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
Thanks. Having now seen more photos (and video) there seems to be a nice large metal-metal face between the top face of the nozzle's enlarged 'head' and the bottom face of the heater (assuming normal downwards-facing-nozzle orientation), which will have the spring keeping it in contact (and stay in contact with differential heating / expansion).
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@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@weed2all said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
Thanks. Having now seen more photos (and video) there seems to be a nice large metal-metal face between the top face of the nozzle's enlarged 'head' and the bottom face of the heater (assuming normal downwards-facing-nozzle orientation), which will have the spring keeping it in contact (and stay in contact with differential heating / expansion).
That's correct.
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Does the Revo still use groove mount? (vs Slice style screws).
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It would be nice if e3d would get away from using structural heat breaks and groove mount. It does look like there might be a through hole/screw option for deltas just looking at their page. I assume it'll be priced around the mosquito's level but it's worse imo esp. with the non standard nozzles.
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@jphilly said in New hot end system from E3D?:
It would be nice if e3d would get away from using structural heat breaks and groove mount. It does look like there might be a through hole/screw option for deltas just looking at their page. I assume it'll be priced around the mosquito's level but it's worse imo esp. with the non standard nozzles.
Groove mount is only for backwards compatibility. The "real" product uses M12 thread mounting (Revo Micro)
E3D mentioned around 120$ for a full hotend with 4 nozzles.
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@diamondback said in New hot end system from E3D?:
E3D mentioned around 120$ for a full hotend with 4 nozzles.
I was quite a bit off then, but I can't see the nozzles or heater being cheap to replace since they're a one off.
I'm not sure about M12 staying put when changing nozzles. At least on my mosquitos it takes a fair bit of torque to loosen a cold nozzle and they're saying it'll be hand loosenable but who knows
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@jphilly said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback said in New hot end system from E3D?:
E3D mentioned around 120$ for a full hotend with 4 nozzles.
I was quite a bit off then, but I can't see the nozzles or heater being cheap to replace since they're a one off.
I'm not sure about M12 staying put when changing nozzles. At least on my mosquitos it takes a fair bit of torque to loosen a cold nozzle and they're saying it'll be hand loosenable but who knows
There has been lots of reports since launch from those that have been beta testing it for the last 10 months or so that are favourable so I don't really think we will have much to worry about as for the screw mount loosening they don't I have been using them since there first inception probably close on 4 years ago.
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@zapta said in New hot end system from E3D?:
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
During my testing of PTC heated bed I found out that it is not true that it heats up slower and I tested just a few typed of PTC heaters. The heating curves can be very different from PTC to PTC and I hope E3D produces repeatable PTC heaters. I wanted one for my hotend for a long time.
Semirelater to heater, does anyone know why aren't they putting cables upwards but sideways? So that bend of a cable would happen away from the heater which seems like a no brainer to me...
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@akstrfn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
Semirelater to heater, does anyone know why aren't they putting cables upwards but sideways? So that bend of a cable would happen away from the heater which seems like a no brainer to me...
I don't understanmd what you're advocating - if the cable emerged upwards they'd need to immediately bend through 90 degrees with a radius of something like 5mm (maybe less) to clear the heatsink. Emerging as they do, they can be routed with a hundreds of millimetre bend if you want.
Or are you advocatinga cable passage cut through teh heatsink? Wouldn't taht potentially muck up air flows and risk chafing the cables?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXcZtnzuPuA has some views with the covers off - there's soem decent-looking strain relief built in.
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@jphilly I was at TCT today and spoke to E3D, they said the nozzle/heat break would be about £15 which I think it very good. It was so easy to swap them out and when you see one next to a traditional hot end the old style looks so clunky!
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@achrn heater with a bit bigger radius would allow for wires from it to emerge directly upwards and you could pack the wire at the back of the heatsink so no problem with airflow. If you look at a lot of hotend installations you will notice that they are bent immediately upwards (or even worse sideways) but luckily the wires are flexible however its still a reliable way to kill the heater if you often mess with the hotend. Actually I think that even v6 hotend install instructions had a warning about that but don't remember clearly... Another thing that I had problems with, is that during catastrophic failures (hits) hotend heater wires would get hit which would be much harder if they were upwards.
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@akstrfn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn heater with a bit bigger radius would allow for wires from it to emerge directly upwards
It would be a severe blow to sales if the new system did not fit within the outline of the V6.
I can see it being one of the design requirements that the new one fits entirely within the outline of the old one, which for a circular block mean limiting your diameter to the smaller plan dimension of the V6 block. It looks like they've done that (or very nearly so) but making the block diameter sufficient to clear the heatsink really wouldn't. I imagine a lot of people that might change the hot end if it's just swapping the hotend would be less likely to do so if it required a phyiscal redesign of the printhead.
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i'm more interested in those new nozzles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShpLnIFpAhwmy nozzle x is holding up pretty good though.
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@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
It would be a severe blow to sales if the new system did not fit within the outline of the V6.
They could clone the Slice's design of a removeable grove mount adapter
https://www.sliceengineering.com/collections/accessories/products/groove-mount-adapter
This will allow backward compatible groove mount and a more modern screw mount.
Personally I would be happy to see the groove mount and the 'hugging' style heatsink fan-mount going away.
What I like about the new design is the round and compact heat element which leaves more clearance to adjacent ducts and other accessories.
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@hackinistrator said in New hot end system from E3D?:
interested in those new nozzles
sounds interesting. He talked about a partner, maybe this one: https://www.championx.com/products-and-solutions/drilling-technologies/diamondback-nozzles/ which is a Kickstarter, but the company itself is very old.
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@blacksheep99 said in New hot end system from E3D?:
It was so easy to swap them out
Their tool changer idea didn't create a new trend and I am not sure if the integrated Hemera did, but maybe this approach for changing will. Time will tell.
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Apparently E3D worked with the Voron team on a Voron Revo version which is red and also have top screws mount, similar to the Dragon and Mosquito hot ends. This version will not come with a fan because Voron has its own hotend fan assembly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLsBjfE5DY4
Since Slice Engineering enforced their patent, the Voron team boycout the Mosquito (e.g. dropped from the PIF program) but they seem to be OK with E3D patent strategy.
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@zapta The Revo coldend situation is less of a pickle than the proprietary hotends produced by RUNICE/phaetus under various names, or the Mosquito situation. E3D has a decade of history of building within an open ecosystem. In their blogpost about patents and the Revo they explicitly encourage people to develop cold-end alternatives. It bears noting that little interest has developed in the larger community towards the CC-BY-SA licensed Copperhead design (last I heard it's not competitive on flow, and no-one seems to be interested in iterating on it).
